What do you imagine are necessary to bring about the third rock from the sun, the sun, conscientiousness and higher forms of intelligence? Does science address how matter and space and temperature and life come into existence from nothing, using any known principles?
I think it is brought about by prior states of the cosmos. It certainly is convenient as well as wonderful that conditions were ripe to bring about the singularity which has led to where we are now. For all I know consciousness may have been at work even then, but if so I cannot imagine what it could have been. I really don’t know but I don’t believe anyone else does either.
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And if there were universes before this one, from what/where/how did they appear?
You can’t imagine literally a Force of some kind was/is behind it all? Why is it virtually impossible that others can tell/decide/understand how creation occurred? Are they special or naïve, foolish or highly intuitive? I think whether or not GOD is, is testable. In fact, allegedly GOD said this: “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”
Let’s say I know someone personally who made that promise to me. Say along with finding him, I would be entitled to and would receive riches beyond what I could imagine, again all through seeking and finding him? Say he would provide me with as many real friends as I could want, wisdom galore, love for everyone, his companionship as long as I wanted it and more. For the sake of this discussion only, would you be interested in finding out if these claims were true?
No thank you. I’m not a blank slate. I already have faith commitments and have no insatiable hunger to answer all the origins questions.
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Just for the sake of this discussion, that offer holds nothing of particular value to you? That is interesting.
Now, if I said that by calling a certain telephone number (quite a long one–36 digits–) you would receive $12,000,000 million dollars instantly, tax free, would you be interested or would you believe that you are not a tabula rasa and reject it outright?
This is not an interesting conversation.
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Sounds like one of those cons targeted at vulnerable people in order to cheat them out of their life savings
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If you said I wouldn’t get the reward until after I died I would certainly be skeptical.
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I find it fascinating. Thanks for joining in. Take care. Nice talking with you, Mark.
It does. It sounds too good to be true. “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields–along with persecutions–and in the age to come eternal life.”
What if He’s telling the truth? How could it be? What’s the catch Jesus? No one in a responsible position like you seem to be should walk around making absurd promises like that. Some might be suckered and get taken for everything. Jesus doesn’t seem to be the kind of person looking for a way to con people out of their money. Not from what I’ve learned about him over the years. So, what’s the deal? I give up everything for you and you in return pour out blessings on me one hundred fold in proportion to what I gave you? How do I give everything? To you? What are you talking about? BTW, I’ve got 2 mites.
And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”
Giving someone a cup of cold water out of devotion to you qualifies? And eternal life?
Absolutely not, but this doesn’t mean that others won’t “in his name”, hence your analogy above is so terrible and I called it out.
Do you have to be devoted to give water to a thirsty man? And does it really count if you only doing this because someone promised you"12 million dollars"?
BTW, we are on the same side.
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This is the expected perspective of the world, in which money / power / pleasure are seen as the highest goods - the ultimate pursuit over anything else. So, naturally, somebody who has more of all those things than others is paranoid - and realistically so - that others are trying to steal those away for themselves.
So the suspicion is also understandable, that perhaps Jesus and his immediate followers were just embarking on one of the longest con jobs: to just see if they can get a lot of gullible followers to part with everything in the name of religion in order to, in the end, line the pockets of the “enlightened messengers”. And indeed the way much of organized religion (including Christianity) has played out in the last millennia, this has indeed happened. Perhaps, though, a tree is known by its fruit?
The other possibility is, that there really is something to the “upside-down” kingdom that turns all this culturally pre-programmed priority on its head. Maybe the money / power / pleasure pursuit is shown to be a chimera as far as human fulfillment goes. What if the pursuit of those things is like scratching an itch? You get immediate relief and everybody wants to do it. But we quickly realize that the relief that scratching gives us is very temporary, and in fact ends up making things worse. What if Jesus really is trying to save us from ourselves and sees that our attachment to all our stuff is really a millstone around our necks? If that were true, it gives us quite a different perspective on our obsession with questions like: "how much do I really have to give up to be saved? … or to be considered a good disciple? Is 1/10 enough - that is a tithe after all! How about 1/2. That seemed to work for Zacchaeus! We quickly read past passages like Luke 14:33, desperately seeking instead that which we can construe as less demanding ‘loop holes’. We prefer the transactional Christianity where some specified demand can be met, after which I can breath easy and think that my obligation in that direction has now been satisfied; the remainder of all I want to pursue is now finally left to me. But all of this is to miss the very point - to miss our very salvation itself! It is like us begging Jesus: “may I keep 9/10 of my millstone around my neck as I flail about here in the water? How about at least half of it?”
In the end all of us (not just the rich young ruler) will be brought to realize that our salvation is not some sort of partial affair. We will in the end be brought to realize that none of what we think we have was really ours in the first place. Not 90%; not 50% … none of it. It all belonged and still belongs to God. What you are doing with the temporary stuff you’ve been placed in charge of is the only question of interest to God.
This second scenario above seems like a viable possibility to me too. While many ostensibly “Chrisitan” leaders through history may have settled on the first option above (revealing their lack of any actual faith), it seems a stretch to think that those who faced torture and death were really con men seeking power and pleasure. That would be very strange indeed. You don’t often see a con artist giving his very life in order to sell you on something that could only be ‘enjoyed’ (if even that) within the confines of his present worldly culture.
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Sure. We have a long parade of con men and women who plot and live to take advantage of others in his name.
He has blessed my heart with love for most people most of the time. Before Him, I hated most people most of the time. It occurred because He is love. I had nothing to do with that infusion of kindness in my me. Nevertheless, I struggle mightily when I sense that phonies are using his name in death and fraud and schemes that leverage their superficial knowledge of him to take advantage of people He loves. I get really ticked, really ticked, over those kinds of things because He’s not like that. That rocks me. After all He did for us, it’s like He has to save himself from those who use his name to hurt others. He allows it, though, doesn’t He? I feel protective of him as though He is family and I want to punish people who abuse him, you know?
Without his ability to save to the uttermost those like myself I would find myself behind bars in about 9 seconds.
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The way of life He promises isn’t something built upon a 30 minute investment of our lives to him. It isn’t depositing 33 acts of kindness and giving in exchange for a 100 fold return in stocks, bonds, real estate and vacations.
It is more like the joy and freedom and confidence that comes from finding your soul mate. “Being in love” is the ultimate liberation. To be who we were meant to be through his love causes a deep love in us for others. The confined and lonely lives we didn’t realize we were living are fading away. Suddenly, we notice others in a new light. Suddenly, everyone has loving value. Everyone becomes an individual worthy of receiving the same love that is present now in us. We are being transformed by a love we never dreamed we would find and it is expressed in our concern for others. It is a radical revolutionary change in us that we didn’t create. How sweet it is to be free to see and hear and be touched by the importance of other people. The response by others who recognize our love and concern for them so freely given sows the seeds of love for us in return. As we give to others because we can’t help but love them with the love that means everything to us, they love and appreciate us–not all, but some will and our self-centered obsessions and fears of being alone and friendless disappear.
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This is interesting, in conjunction with the neurophysiology discussion part of the interview:
Sounds like first love Ralphie. Good luck.
“But I have against you that you have abandoned your first love.”
Having been given an overwhelming and perfectly sober experience with the two greatest commandments, what terrible sin it would be to settle for anything less in working out my salvation daily with fear and trembling.
Hosea 2:23: KJV.
"And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.”
Here God is telling His people through the Prophet Hosea that He will in the end redeem Israel (His people). Israel can also be seen as a metaphor for all mankind.
As every human being is made in the image of God, Almighty God will rescue all people; He has The Master Plan to redeem every soul.
Christians know that Jesus Christ is preparing a place for His followers; at the resurrection they will all be Home safe and sound in some Heavenly residence. What is less clear is what our loving Heavenly Father will do with everybody else. Hosea’s verse offers some insight as it hints at Almighty God’s saving Grace being extended to those who do not know Him.
The details of God’s Holy Plan are not disclosed, but the Bible does tell us that non-believers are initially not in a good place. They are outside of God’s Grace and so they are in effect separated from God; which is what Hell must be like.
In the Hosea: 2-23 it describes Almighty God as loving and generous to those who do not know Him. Our God’s essential nature IS pure unconditional love and this kind of love is bigger than we can imagine.
The Triune God is a redeeming God of Consuming Fire, He rescues and brings Home ALL the lost, in His Way and in His Time. It is His Will which stands higher and wider than human beings can fully grasp.
God of Grace and endless love forgive us our sins, let us not judge others. We know you are the only true Judge, we do not have all the information to judge wisely. In a world full of fear and distress, have mercy on those who have no mercy and on those who do not know you. In their redemption dwells the healing of our world. Come Lord Jesus come and be with us now and evermore. We need you Heavenly Father, beloved Abba, we need you now so much. Please Lord Jesus bring your Heaven down to us on Earth. We ache and long for you Lord of All.
Amen.
“The same can be said for our ‘selves’; with no deliberate effort of our own we come to know our selves as a constant entity much as we take others to be.”
I know what you mean and basically agree with you, but I did want to add that unfortunately there are some poor souls who can’t maintain that constancy of self so easily taken for granted by many.
It is estimated that Borderline Personality Disorder afflicts more than three million adults in the U.S. and it is characterized in part by a “distracted” or an “unstable” sense of self.
We are re-running this episode today! So I’m bumping this up to the top for any new insights or new listeners!
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