I agree with you on the idea of eternal hellfire is out of line with an all loving God but I view hell as a place of misery and shame and condemnation. It is a place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” No need for literal hellfire as the eternal shame and condemnation is enough to burn a fire in a persons soul.
1 Like
Read Matthew chapter 25.
It’s from Jesus not Paul.
There are things from Paul or attributed Paul like misogyny that don’t come from Jesus, but this is not one of them.
Darkness doesn’t equal oblivion. That is a connection you are making not Jesus. Jesus does speak of “outer darkness” but then in Matthew 25 He used the words “eternal punishment.”
This too is out of step with the nature of God.
For me, the same issue still exists regardless of the elements Scripture uses to describe it. Darkness, fire, misery, aside, it’s the justness of it. God is just, holy, and righteous. He’s fair in whatever He does. Eternal conscious shame is equally problematic due to its never-ending nature. Like putting someone in solitary life imprisonment for stealing a pack of gum. So again I go back to: a just God meting out an eternity of punishment for temporal sin is a glaring inconsistency whatever apologetic we use to explain it. Thus for me, eternal life is not balanced against eternal conscious separation but rather annihilation, which is the ultimate opposite.
1 Like
Easily said. Not easily explained.
1 Like
What have the metaphors of the ten virgins, the talents, the sheep and goats got to do with the reality of transcendence? You know, for a trillion people or ten by the time we’re done. 10,000 years per trillion.
What proportion are damned? 50:50?
I have been looking at the issue of hell very seriously as I have been lurking around this forum and I have been on the fence between my current view and annihilationist but my issue is with annihilation is how would that then fit into the final judgement as told in Rev. 20? I am open to annihilation after the final judgement which I think might happen as through a verse in 2nd Thess. 1:9 (much larger context into the verse is found in 1st Thess. 1:6-9).
I would agree that it follows the final judgment. As to Rev 20, anything in Revelation is hard to nail down in respect to chronology or literal meaning. It’s filled with vision, dream, metaphor, symbolism, code, and multiple meaning. As such there is nothing contrary in that chapter to an annihilation view. The beast and false prophet are the only ones said to be “tormented day and night forever and ever.” A just punishment for the most malevolent being in the created universe. It fits the crime. Yet even death and Hades are said to be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed along with those not named in the book of life. It says nothing about eternal torment for unrighteous human souls. Just that they suffer the same means of punishment. They were “judged according to their deeds”. The punishment prior to annihilation will fit the crime. Again, I’m not reading it literally. But even for those reading it more strictly the words allow a broader view that we might think.
3 Likes
Upon doing some research while waiting for a reply I have been seeing that the idea of hell wasn’t a thing taught by Jesus or Paul, instead the issue seems to be gaining eternal life in Christ and outside of it one just seems to simply die without the hope of immortal life. One book I previewed that I plan to buy and read in full sometime is this book by Douglas Barry: https://www.amazon.com/Conditional-Immortality-Biblical-proof-Annihilation/dp/1482698056
Yes I would agree with you on all that. I am still in a sense shaking off my fundamentalist’s ways of thinking in how both Revelation and the Bible as a whole should be read.
1 Like
Not at all. It couldn’t be easier: Jesus saves.
Nobody is saying He doesn’t. That wasn’t the question.
That’s the answer. No limit.
Not following you. By “no limit” are you advocating universalism?
Hell wouldn’t concern me as much if we all had the same starting and ending point. The number of variables is pretty large. Biology, genetics, environment, experiences etc… the wide and narrow roads terrify me. Not just for myself but for humanity in general. The narrow road seems like it will be single file. It is certainly a major stumbling block for me.
I mean that He’s competent. Not a one time only, take it or leave it offer, at participating stores only. Not evil.
Huh?
The word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught anywhere in the Bible let alone by Jesus or Paul. And yet this doctrine defines Christianity.
The word “hell” is in the Bible and is used by Jesus even if it is not used by Paul. Eternal conscious torment is described and talked about in the Bible and particularly by Jesus Himself. And what about Paul? He does not speak of hell but neither does he speak of annihilation. Most of the time he speaks of sin being the difference between life and death – but not always. In Romans 2, he does give a description of what those who are evil can expect, and the words Paul uses are wrath, fury, tribulation, and distress. So this agrees with the description given by Jesus. Both Jesus and Paul thus teach the same thing and it is not annihilation. The Bible does not equate death with non-existence – not in the teaching of Moses in Genesis, and not in the teaching of Jesus, and not in the teaching of Paul either.
Yes. As a result this book is a very poor basis for theology. Though it is a favorite of many cults because of the ease with which they can read so many things into it. It is very hard for me to take any of the events described in this book seriously let alone literally.
1 Like
What research?
Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Gehenna. Quoted at least 11 times from at least 7 occasions according to Strong’s: Mat.5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:09, 23:15,33. Mar. 9:43,45,47, Luk.12:05, Jak.3:6
It’s just cultural Jason. They was 'ard times. Jesus was a perfectly ignorant man of His time. His divine nature transcended that to a peerless degree for the time and all time, but His feet were mired in a brutal, ignorant culture. I cut Him all the slack there is in that He used the culture’s memes and tropes against it, ruthlessly, and didn’t necessarily believe that a word of what He was saying was literal. I mean, how could He possibly know? He said what could be said at the time. It’s more than time for us to interpret it for our time.
Ooh, and it should still bother you even after equality of outcome, universal social, moral justice as a re-starting point.
It depends on what English translation you are reading.
In Matthew 25 In Greek
46 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὖτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
In English: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The Greek word is not easily translated but it is not punishment because that would be τιμωρία
I arrive at darkness and oblivion because the evil / inhumane person has deadened their conscience, which means they have dismissed knowledge of the other. That way they can treat others as objects, without any feeling for them. This dismissal of knowledge effectively darkens consciousness. It is certainly hard to define consciousness but two aspects are awareness and knowledge. Knowledge is often symbolically represented by light. The light of knowledge is a common saying.
According to Google oblivion is the state of being unaware or unconscious of what is happening around one. I don’t think this is really right. One never loses awareness but if one loses knowledge by dismissal, then one has no knowledge of their awareness, i.e., they don’t know what they are aware of. I can give you an example here as this situation is used in foul game play of inhumane people.
The related, inhumane person, who wants to play some cheat on the other person in relationship, first brings some criminals into the targeted person’s vicinity. The criminals don’t act out but they make some noise like calling to each other across the room or street or bar “Hey Joe” etc., The targeted person attention is momentarily captured and they look around or hear the noise. But as it looks like any ordinary everyday event they dismiss it. This then means that the criminals can again be brought into the targeted person’s vicinity some time later, usually armed this time, and the targeted person will become aware of them BUT will lack knowledge because they had earlier dismissed it. So they may react with fear, but they are unable to correctly appraise their bodily reactivity. All they know is that they are experiencing high emotional charge or feeling hot all of a sudden. Hence the condition can be used in any number of ways. The love at first sight cheat exploits this situation.
So getting back to our discussion, those who are evil / inhumane are not punished but have themselves created their own problems so they end up in a place of darkness or hell. In the Greek at least Jesus is not saying that they are being punished but that they go into “a bad place” (for want of better words) eternally.
@mitchellmckain @Klax not saying I fully agree with annihilation, but the Bible seems to state some type of “death” for the unsaved. I see this as spiritual and not outright annihilation in the sense as some think. I have become agnostic on the issue of hell and while I think a place of “separation” for the unsaved exist, the traditional idea of it being “hell” I do not believe in. All I know of it as is a place outside of the presence of God and away from His glory and power. Those people are outside of “paradise”.
1 Like