Avoiding a Vacuous Creationism

And let us not forget the the fact that crops have to be grown, food prepared, the distance food must be brought to bring it to our mouths, and all that chewing. Life only exists on the basis of fixed rules and the challenges which must be overcome. These are not problems with the earth, it is laziness and expecting God to do everything for us which is the problem.


I think what Liam is trying to get at is that natural disasters such as swarms of locusts, viral outbreaks, and tsunamis all cause destruction of human food sources, the loss of human life, and the destruction of human habitats. These seem to be part of the natural order, the “way of things”, as it might be said. He’s asking what you think is going to happen to those things. Will viruses cease to make us ill? Will tsunamis just become glorious phenomena for us to marvel at, with no fear? That sort of thing.

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Well, not if “the sea was no more.” Rev. 21:1.


No they will still make us ill and people will still leave this world to be with God.

No and fire will still burn and if we leap off buildings we will still splat on the ground in a pudding of meat and blood. We will continue to fear these things because we are supposed to fear these things. We are supposed to make some effort to keep ourselves alive because life has value. But it ONLY has value because we fight and make some effort for it. Life which is simply handed and bottle fed to us is worthless – that is a prescription for the eloi of H. G. Wells “Time Machine.”

The real tragedy is that when people leave this world they are disconnected from the source of life as well as overwhelmed by self-destructive habits and so instead of finding more life waiting for them they find only death. To be sure those self-destructive habits are not helping us in this world ether, turning our paradisaical earth into cesspool of our own filth and a hell of our own cruelty, hatreds, and irresponsibility. But the purpose of this universe is a womb, temporary for the individual but certainly no reason for it not to continue in that function for billions of years, giving birth to many many more of God’s children.

Thank you for your reply! I was mostly trying to clarify for Liam’s and Mitchell’s benefit.

I’m Amillennial, so I understand much of Revelation to be symbolic language. This verse would be included in that interpretive framework.

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Please note that I was trying to clarify Liam’s position, since I felt like maybe you misunderstood him. However, these answers should provide him with what he’s looking for. Thank you!

For my part, I don’t agree that people will still die.

That’s an interesting perspective, and I think there is some wisdom to it.

I don’t know about that.

Interesting perspective. So when “death” is treated as the last enemy to be overcome, what is meant, in your understanding, is spiritual death, similar to how one might take “death” as talked about in Genesis 3?

Of course. Evolution makes it crystal clear. There is no life without death. And there was death before the fall even in the Genesis story – from the simple act of eating anything to the warning of death in God’s command. The death that comes from sin is the refusal to live by meeting the challenge of life to learn and grow – it is the bad habits which spiral down into moral decal, contempt for life, and despair. It is the pointless irrational rebellion of saying, “I didn’t ask for life!” You cannot ask for life without being alive first.


I understand, of course, that the process of evolution necessitates a cycle of life and death. I understand that this is how God chose to create. It’s the process He chose to use.

I simply don’t believe that humans will continue to experience physical death, painful and horrible as it is, or the grief that comes with death. You are right that death most certainly includes the spiritual separation from God, and perhaps this will be a permanent destruction or eternal, conscious torment (I think a case can be made for both). But it seems that the Scriptures also indicate that physical death will be an issue of the past, for humans at least. Hence the resurrection.

Of course, you and I might also differ a little bit on the exact nature of the resurrection.

Thanks for the discussion. I gain much enjoyment from reading your responses.

Well, I’m a Boomer, but understand it the same way. Sorry, I am just a bit of class clown, and enjoy expressing the figurative as literal at times, tongue in cheek.


If you were trying to be humorous with it, know that it wasn’t lost on me, lol. That’s one of the reasons I liked the post. However, I did want to make sure that I clarified, just in case.

I guess in how I saw it for a long time when coming back to EC was that since there was no “Fall” from a “perfect Eden” and everything is as it was since the start as in terms of death and decay, it seemed that it would go on like this forever and the New Creation for a while for me was some creedal statement that meant nothing. But, I have seen that God is not okay with the status quo and will change Creation as we know it and make it perfect.

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Again, thank you all for great replies and contributions. I’ve a busy rest of the week prepping a sermon on John 6:25-59 so it may take me a few days to follow up. Blessings.

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I’ve prayed for you and your sermon prep! God be with you. :slight_smile:


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