Thanks for the explanation. I too strongly challenge the idea of endless torture/death myself for various reasons, some similar and some ancillary. I plan to study this point of theology further to understand how we got there. One step at a time.
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Stephen
I am curios about your journey. You said you were a Christian for ~30 years and then transitioned into an atheist.
Are you willing to discuss that process, like your previous experience and what influences led to your change of heart? I would find that helpful and probably others will also.
Jack
Why would that be “helpful?” I can think of only a few reasons it would be “helpful” to others to hear my story: 1) it can be encouraging to those who are transitioning and who worry about what will happen next; or 2) it can be useful to Christians to identify reasons why people leave and to consider whether/how to fix that; or 3) it can be helpful in building a relationship with me, just like any personal and deep conversation can.
For #1, please contact me personally. I can probably help you. I can at least listen.
For #2, that’s not my problem and I’m usually not willing to help with it.
For #3, I don’t know you and we would have a lot of work to do to change that.
Well now that we have an eloquent explanation why all life must die. Everything created in this world will be destroyed. Nothing in this world is permanent and if it exists it will be destroyed. The more complex the less likely that it is to exist. For a complex organized system to exist it must take in energy to maintain its complex organization state. In essence to maintain its state of order it must increase the disorder of its environment by a greater amount. This is a condition of all life in this world. I hope thats not to appalling!
Perhaps we can consider the concept of Loosed and Bound that Jesus discussed?
A couple nice passes here, sfm…They did take some thinking, I must say.
The issue, of course, was more centered on “meaning,” that is “why is there death…” And I did urge him to discuss this — if he wanted a scientific response – with someone qualified in that field. You and I can only give him some philosophical or theological response.
And you gave him your thoughts: An unthinking, impersonal, unplanned, value-free, random, haphazard, thoughtless, unfeeling, amoral, lazy, disorganized, cluttered, uncaring, nonexistent mass of mush swirling around aimlessly and by accident — multiple accidents (and learning nothing from any previous accident because thought-free)-- unplans and undevelops complex systems that have some sense of order and function (randomly and haphazardly) and then randomly, haphazardly, uncaring and unfeeling, without knowledge or need of it, impersonally decides (but without deciding) that “an infinity of impossibility” exists (but there is no existence–who called it that?) and reasons, without meaning to because there is no reason, that succeeding generations (but ungenerated because that in itself takes effort and probably violates laws of physics that do not exist in a universe that has no plan or personality or impersonal thought) should willingly (but there is no will because that too requires some personality in a situation that is impersonal) induce death in some so as to make way for others??? In a value-free universe, why should that be desired or accepted?
I do recall having, long ago, visited an atheist website and read some of this essentially same argument on a subject of interest to the atheist community. This was about two decades ago. I was, at the time, “coming back” to some form of religion (undecided by me at the time) and genuinely wanted to see what the atheist view was/is – and to consider it.
This is on the assumption that everyone has something to say and should be heard.
It seemed only fair. So I did hear it…but there was a moment when it occurred to me that atheism also takes faith.
Well…good enough. I do think the subject here has been beaten to death (no passes required) …and speaking of which, yes I know Hoyle passed away a few years ago. This is why I said that he is even more of a believer now.
Good luck in your search, guys!!
Huh? I’m a biologist.
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Stephen
1- I’m new and I genuinely want to learn more about the people on this site, so I can be more courteous for one, and it helps me avoid dragging people through glass with my comments or questions.
2- I have been thinking this thread is really about atheists and Jesus which could include a wide range of discussion topics. Your case is interesting because you have been both places and probably have unique perspectives which could fit the theme.
3- I am working on a book which may or may not ever see the light of day, but addressing certain theological conundrums is one emphasis of the writing. These are beliefs we Christians hold that are probably incorrect in some way which either don’t make sense or actually harm people. You may have a list of them relating to your journey and I would like to compare notes.
I think you have valuable opinions that fit into each category above, and I would be happy to cover them privately if that would feel better/safer. I’m a rather open book once you lift the cover.
Jack
Which universalists believe that?
Aye Jack. It’s the rightness, the ethos, pathos and eros all feeding back in to the logos. Punishment is human. Any God worth His salt, any decent, effectual God doesn’t need to punish anyone in the resurrection. Why would He? To what possible purpose? With what justification? I take all of the passages on the trajectory of universal social justice, equality of outcome for all[,] which will obtain in paradise. That’s what makes it so. A trajectory from the early C6th BCE at least: Lamentations 3:31-33 “For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love”. It’s all about what we bring to the party. Our disposition. How we fearfully misapply the hard sayings of Jesus and ignore His soft ones.
I’ll cogitate on that for a while. I see what that passage is saying and it bears some consideration. I agree that primitive human thought sees a need for punishment, but what we think we know about G-d says that G-d gains nothing from that. I agree that we have tended to go for the most negative approach as the safest, but wrong thinking is not necessarily safe thinking. If it drives people away completely, that is not safe at all.
I will spend more time, before discussing further.
Thanks much!
Jack
Universalism has been discussed extensively around the book “All will be saved”. Gregory of Nyssa is touted as a universalist as is Origen. Sites on the web also provide detailed discussions.
Those guys have been dead and gone a while GJDS. Can you find a contemporary who believes ‘that sinners must go through a painful purging of their evil by God (out of love) and this may take a long time - after all evil has been destroyed and they seek the good from God, He will extend His Grace to them and they will accept/choose salvation.’. And how do they think God will purge sinners? Which is all of us isn’t it?
Universalism has been debated within the Orthodox religion for a long time - the most recent example is Hart in “All shall be saved”. On the purging of sin, my main source is Gregory in the making of man and it deals with those who may have died without repenting and turning to Christ. A detailed treatment will require a lengthy exchange and since I do not subscribe to universalism (as absolute) I am not the best person to discuss purging of evil and saving the unrepentant. There has been an extensive treatment on the site “eclectic orthodoxy” and you may find recent authors on this site.
Oh yes, the how - sinners commit sin out of ignorance of the Good, so when God reveals Himself as total Goodness, they realize their ignorance and and the resulting evil and suffering, and this is purged from them as a result of God’s Love (this is my best effort to summarize).
I don’t see why it should hurt. Being resurrected in paradise just might create a sense of cognitive dissonance. Unlearning, deconstructing, reconstructing, healing, being loved, laughing about it all, being amazed, stunned won’t leave a lot for pain and suffering. I’d have thought that most of us sinners will have had enough of that already.
Scripture indicates a judgement and consequences for evil deeds. Repentance in this life is arriving at the death of the sinful us, and living anew in Christ. This is easier said than done, and such a re-birth involves painful remorse and self-examination.
Yes we sinners have our lot in this life, and I am contented to leave the judgment in this life and the next, to the perfect judge, Christ.
Scripture might. But that has nothing to do with the actual resurrection. The actual transcendent. Scripture is human. Of its time. And the judgement Jesus describes, even in His ignorant humanity, for the vilest of mythical cultures, is bearable. Regardless of His hard sayings, which were for then. Have nothing to do with the sublime. Painful even pathological remorse is for now. Not for paradise. It’s all about what we bring to the party. A fearful disposition or a hopeful one. What do you think the risen Christ would have us feel? What interpretation, what hermeneutic would He have us have?
Would He have us condemn the other thief on the cross? Would He have us cheer in derision as the unforgiving servant is led off to the torturers? Shrug at Dives? Would He have us nodding grimly at the nuking of Bethsaida, Chorazin and Capernaum? That’s their yet bearable judgement? That they become ashes under our feet?
Abraham wouldn’t.
The perfect judge gives perfect justice (that includes mercy).
I think this is a fair statement for anyone who has become disappointed with the version of Christianity provided to them. My view is that we start with our considered reasoned outlook on a belief in God, or no belief in God. From this point, we work out our beliefs either way.
Me too. Perfect justice is full restitution for all lack.
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Ultimately scripture seems to teach that those who did not pursue Gods righteousness and truth won’t be given eternal life through Christ. Because of that, when the godly and ungodly are resurrected one will be given eternal life and the other destruction, destroyed in the lake of fire which is the second death where god destroys both the body and soul. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. Jesus was not saving us from eternal torture, but from being kill in the eternal fire. After all death and hades are both thrown into the lake of fire. They are not being tortured forever, they are abstract ideas. But they are going to be destroyed along with the unrighteous.
We are not to take joy in the death of the lost but are to take up our cross and pursue them and love them so that they may find new life in Christ.