Why “appalling” and how do you know they “developed later from the church”?
JES10—the issue of the duration of hell is an ongoing one, and since everlasting torment seems to be among the biblical phrases existing in the text, it will continue. But it was Jesus Himself who declared that no one comes to God except through Him and by being born again.
And Christians generally do believe what Jesus has t aught.,
Already explained above.
Ask the person who wrote that.
I am not disagreeing with you about this either, I’m just expanding the population. I think that the “litany of claims” that you had to believe fit well within your original statement that Christians believe what they want to believe. I merely expanded it to non-Christians as well.
Well, it was not a question, but I did not wish to engage over that topic. Who knows now exactly what the afterlife looks like? Everyone has an opinion, and, true to what you said, I think that those opinions have more to do with what a person wants to believe.
All too many James. As reformed Christianity collapses, its heart of darkness, from the beginning, is cast in to relief.
So let me understand you are rejecting the parable because you find it offending in that it’s so cruel to those that don’t live their lives fruitfully in accordance with the teachings of Jesus Christ and therefore will die. Isn’t that the choice of those that defy him and don’t live their lives that way? It seems he is just making it pretty black or white and you are being petty. Would you rather he sugar coat it and maybe say they just go out to pasture? Or maybe make it rhyme? I think one should focus on the meaning of the parable.
So then what’s the big deal about death? Do you think Atheist believe in the afterlife? Do you believe that you live and die and the spirit goes on somehow? Where ya going?? Or do you think you just live and die and that’s all she wrote?
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That’s not even close to what I wrote. You asked a question of atheists (that’s me) about whether there are things that Jesus preached that I think are wrong. I answered you, thinking you were curious about what others believe.
I was wrong about that.
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As a Christian it’s all transcendentally about the company one aspires to. So I look forward to being in Hell with you Stephen. The righteous can keep heaven. But if God is the psychopathic sadist they say, then of course He’ll put us there!
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I agree with you, Michael. I think everyone has commitments to what it is they essentially want to believe, but rarely are we clear on what those things really are. With atheists, clearly, the ‘things’ can be all over the map. I rarely talk with other atheists who have any clear notion what it is that drives their beliefs, unless you count the belief/hope that science will one day answer all questions. I always want to ask them what good all those future answers are going to do them in their day to day life, but those kind of questions usually yield assertions of “whatever you like”. To which I always think sure, but what do you like. Apparently they don’t know or don’t think it matters.
But the situation doesn’t strike me as all that much better for Christians. They share among themselves the assumption that God’s will is best and also the assumption that the Bible is the best place to discover what that may be. But what drives the desire to believe that and how well is that working out? The shared endorsement of God’s will and Bible doesn’t seem to lead Christians to either want the same things or believe the same things once you dial in to specifics. Whether atheists or Christians, it is difficult to know whether it is wants or beliefs which come first.
Edited to say I it should be Michael_Cullen who is the author of the quoted response to the earlier quote above, but I am mystified on how to fix that.
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I think most still believes in it.
However I think scripture is clear that the unbeliever is destroyed in the lake of fire. I’m not certain if I believe they are tortured in hell , then resurrected at the white throne and then destroyed because the wages of sin is death, not eternal life.
I definitely don’t believe in universalism though. I wish it was true, but scripturally there is to much talk about wicked ones being destroyed.
One thing intake issue with is the thought that we believe what we want to believe when it comes to reading the Bible.
For one I disagree with a lot of it, but accept it as what God teaches. If I was born as a Jew under the old covenant it would be miserable for me but I may have still followed god and did my best to pursue him.
Under the new covenant with Christ there are things I don’t really agree with.
I believe that the teachings on divorce and remarriage except for adultery, and what Paul said about unbelievers leaving you, is rough. It seems even the apostles believed this because they at one time said, “ if that’s the case then it’s better to never be married”.
I don’t agree with the scriptures teachings on who is qualified to be a elder, which is a pastor. The qualifications are a bit strict. A pastor must be a married man of one wife with kids (2+) and they all obey Christ well. I know plenty of women who have great leadership skills yet scripture says they can’t be a elder.
I still wrestle with the lost being destroyed in the lake of fire. I understand why, if you reject Christ you are rejecting eternal life and without eternal life to combat the wages of sin all you are left with is your soul being destroyed.
I even take some issue with how Jesus handled gentiles. Such as the parable where the gentile is refereed to as a dog at his masters table waiting for scraps. There is no other situation where that would be ok. If a white person used that parable to all about blacks, or if men used that to talk about women, and ect… it seems mean spirited to me. I understand that the old testament lead up to that by them being the first chosen people and so on but I still disagree with it.
I think that some of the sins in the Bible is ridiculous. Like homosexuality. A situation where two people can be faithfully committed to each other, live lives just as good as any other decent person, and still end up condemned despite they never hurt anyone. It’s bizarre.
So I don’t believe that christians simply read what they want. I think they read what they see. Obviously, that does not mean some won’t read into it what they want by pulling this or that out of context and so on. But ultimately, I just don’t believe we believe what we want anymore than scientists do. We all are looking at data in various forms and drawing conclusions.
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With atheists, clearly, the ‘things’ can be all over the map. I rarely talk with other atheists who have any clear notion what it is that drives their beliefs, unless you count the belief/hope that science will one day answer all questions. I always want to ask them what good all those future answers are going to do them in their day to day life, but those kind of questions usually yield assertions of “whatever you like”. To which I always think sure, but what do you like. Apparently they don’t know or don’t think it matters.
I can’t answer for all atheists but my ‘belief’ process is rather straightforward. I evaluate a claim and based on things like past experiences, current data and expert opinion I determine whether or not I accept that claim. The earth is flat, the Universe is 6,000 years old, aliens have visited earth, there is omnipotent Being who is in control of everything and whose will is always done. As I mentioned before, when I was a Christian I accepted a number of claims without ever really evaluating them. There was flood that covered the whole earth and killed everyone except a boat full of animals and 8 people. A large percentage of Christians still believe this claim. Why? Fear of Hell? Fear of making God mad? It can’t be evidence, there is none.
You ask whether I hope that science will answer everything. Actually I’m perfectly OK not knowing all the answers. Not knowing what existed before the Big Bang in no way impacts my current life. The afterlife? You don’t have the answers either, you have claims that need to be evaluated. I don’t currently accept those claims because I don’t see enough evidence that they are true. Here is my thought on science vs the supernatural; can you give me one example where the supernatural answer has superseded science?
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No I can’t. I believe the supernatural is an empty set. But since I don’t believe in an external God that created all and maintains afterlife amusement parks, that is no surprise. I’m just critical of many atheist assertions.
Well I didn’t mean believing what one wants in a frivolous way. I meant it in the sense that you discover what people really believe and what they really value by what they pursue (assuming pursue = want). But it does seem that holding the Bible as sacred has not resulted in a commonality in what Christians pursue or what they believe. I completely agree with the exceptions you note to what others might take to be positions clearly supported by the Bible, and I’m glad you are not alone on those. But that others have and others still do find support for a wide range of positions on matters pertinent to everyday morals kind of makes my point. But all that shows is that merely claiming the Bible doesn’t bootstrap anyone up out of the human condition we all share. But I don’t deny that better theology won by intense study and reflection can have a positive effect. Then again study and reflection in many areas can do the same, not that I expect any Christian to agree that the Bible is extraneous.
We can meet at a local shelter to spend time in hell together. Or maybe we can visit an ICE-run facility near a US border. Beverages on me!
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Exactly Stephen. No fantasy Hell could be worse.
One of my favorite quips …
“Just because someone believes in God doesn’t necessarily make them a bad person.”
I like this because it reverses the stereotypical roles of atheist and Christian, and gives some insight IMO into how we ought to be treating one another. I’m an optimist and think we all hold the potential to be good, for some definition of the concept. Some people are better at it than others. Religion tries to teach some rules and wisdom to promote the good, which is a worthy plan, but sometimes fails in the execution. The idea of Jesus as a role model for behavior is also worthy.
I think should end there, before I start a fight. 
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Effective religion is epitomised by Islam. It binds.
I think I understand. I do agree that a Christian will believe the word of God since we believe in a God who shared his will with us through apostles and prophets writing it down inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Such as despite disagreeing with it on those previously mr ruined subjects I still accept them as what he says.