Me too. Perfect justice is full restitution for all lack.
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Ultimately scripture seems to teach that those who did not pursue Gods righteousness and truth won’t be given eternal life through Christ. Because of that, when the godly and ungodly are resurrected one will be given eternal life and the other destruction, destroyed in the lake of fire which is the second death where god destroys both the body and soul. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. Jesus was not saving us from eternal torture, but from being kill in the eternal fire. After all death and hades are both thrown into the lake of fire. They are not being tortured forever, they are abstract ideas. But they are going to be destroyed along with the unrighteous.
We are not to take joy in the death of the lost but are to take up our cross and pursue them and love them so that they may find new life in Christ.
Yeah, I used to believe that. That the ‘incorrigible’, even after millennial purgatory, would be thrown in the Lake of Fire. Annihilation. But my epistemology has been changed.
I’m still considering Lamentations 31. Besides that, what other influences would you credit with your change in thinking?
did you actually read what i wrote?
It’s the whole 65 year journey and my particular prewiring for experience Weims. As for all of us. I awoke at age 10 to the nightmares of Auschwitz and Hiroshima by my own curiosity. Not my parents’ or teachers’ fault. That defined the future, I became a child of the bomb. My unguided curiosity, in that vein, with no close adult feedback, led me to The Plain Truth magazine and the end-times cult behind it five years later. The filter for the chosen was their free correspondence course. In all their narrow, legalistic, extreme historical-grammatical heterodoxy, they got one thing ‘right’: a big minded although literal view of the resurrection. At the crescendo of the imminent Apocalypse Christ would return to save humanity from Satan and itself and establish the Millennium for all survivors and with the chosen of the first and better resurrection. Satan would be given one last throw of the dice at the end and then would come the second and general resurrection of all humanity to continue the redemptive work of the Millennium for a century up to the Great White Throne Judgement and third resurrection. The rebels - Gog Magog - from the millennium and the incorrigible of the second resurrection would be snuffed out. I lived with that for 25 years. As a strict Sabbatarian for 19 to boot. Then the cult deconstructed itself and me with it. After 3 years of that - including a detour up the cul-de-sac of the charismatic in parallel - I went nowhere for 7, but always felt the hand of God upon me.
Desperation (marriage, kids, existenz) took me literally to the Anglican church of my infant baptism, via the Alpha Course. Pious evangelicals. I loved it. But the elephant in the room of damnationism was ever present. I’m highly extroverted but old school, so I kept my thoughts to myself. The elephant would come at me personally out of the herd in conversation with individuals. From them, never me. Two guys winkled it out of me. One threatened to report me. A vicar’s son. Another, a geriatrics nurse, was telling me how it saddened him so to see his elderly charges shuffle off to Hell without having said the sinner’s prayer. I shook my head in horror. That’s all I ‘said’. His eyes blazed and he pointed his finger at me like at the end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers and howled ‘Heresy!’. Believe it. Sir John Harrington came to mind, ‘How then doth treason prosper? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.’. And I daren’t. Not then. It took another 5 years of pious evangelical damnationism, after reading, devouring all of Rob Bell (and watching and meeting) and Brian McLaren. That was less than 10 years ago.
Renaissance humanism and the Enlightenment had finally caught up with me after five-three hundred years. I finally stopped trying to make any of the Bible literal with the imprimatur of the Holy Spirit guaranteeing that the names of the books were the names of the actual authors. That Adam and Eve segued in to evolution. That process still took effect over the past few years. Deconstruction of all OT prophecy was completed. You know, what the average theology undergrad or high school major knows at 17. Nothing is reconstructable. The onslaught of rationalism - of the fact of the infinite material creation from eternity with no signature of having been created, that there have always been peopled worlds and if there was one incarnation, there have been infinite - continued to date although I have been able to take something back most recently as reported on this site. Re-acceptance of the paradox of the Personal full divinity of fully human Christ, rather than divinity by nature.
Sorry, but you asked for influences!
OK, the towering scriptural evidence, that the hyperbolic hard sayings of Jesus have nothing to do with the resurrection, the sublime, transcendent afterlife, beyond the assurance of paradise given to the penitent thief on the cross (BUT NOT THE OTHER ONE! HE’S DAMNED TO EVERBURNING HELL!!!), is here:
Matthew 10:5-15
The Mission of the Twelve
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim the good news, ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. You received without payment; give without payment. 9 Take no gold, or silver, or copper in your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, or two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for laborers deserve their food. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, find out who in it is worthy, and stay there until you leave. 12 As you enter the house, greet it. 13 If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Matthew 11:20-24
Woe on Unrepentant Towns
20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Luke 10:1:12
The Mission of the Seventy
10 After this the Lord appointed seventy others and sent them on ahead of him in pairs to every town and place where he himself intended to go. 2 He said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore ask the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. 3 Go on your way. See, I am sending you out like lambs into the midst of wolves. 4 Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and greet no one on the road. 5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house!’ 6 And if anyone is there who shares in peace, your peace will rest on that person; but if not, it will return to you. 7 Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the laborer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house. 8 Whenever you enter a town and its people welcome you, eat what is set before you; 9 cure the sick who are there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not welcome you, go out into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off in protest against you. Yet know this: the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, on that day it will be more tolerable for Sodom than for that town.
Luke 10:13-16
Woes to Unrepentant Cities
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But at the judgment it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be brought down to Hades. 16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
Luke 10:17-20
The Return of the Seventy
…
Either these are the same event, with different emphases on 12 or 70, or two separate events. Minimally Jesus said twice, may be four times that Sodom and Gomorrah, Tyre and Sidon will have a more bearable judgement than His contemporary Jewish cities, more than implying that they will nonetheless have a nonetheless bearable judgement. Not that they will end up nuked like the mythical S&G (and three other cities by collateral damage…). I thought this before Rob Bell said it and was elated that somebody else thought it.
I’m looking forward to that judgement. No fear.
YMMV.
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The price or cost of creation (existence) is destruction (death). The ancients understood this in some way and thought that they could pay that price with sacrifice, First fruits etc. interesting that this concept of sacrifice is found often in many ancient civilizations from the Americas, Asia, Europe and Middle East. You should think about that.
Consciousness is a non physical form of our experience but just the same it involves both giving and taking that have a cost or price associated with these actions.
Consider vices versus virtues that Jesus preaches. Some are giving some are taking.
Pride vs humility
Gluttony versus temperance
Sloth versus driven
Greed versus generosity
Envy versus. Compassion
Lust versus chasity
Wrath versus Peace
I’ve been busy today, but thanks for this detailed reply.
I will study it well and follow-up.
Jack
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KLAX,
Thanks for providing this view into your journey. It helps me better understand the context of your thought progression and I wanted to gain a better sense of how Scripture has influenced you.
I can relate to deconstruction and reconstruction. My deconstruction journey was more self-inflicted. I came from stable theological beginnings, but at one point made a move toward a self-styled christian mysticism, maybe a bit charismatic. At some point, realized I had been deluding myself which left me disillusioned with myself and my spiritual practices. That took me several years to recover and restart.
Along the way, I too began integrating science into my theological world view, but I have done that from a different perspective. For some reason, I retained my trust in Scripture even with the hard questions of it. I guess my perspective has been that G-d cannot hold anyone responsible if Scripture is not trustworthy, and that possibility would lead us all into spiritual oblivion. I’m not at all ready for that.
As an engineer, I have begun thinking about creation like an engineer, thinking about the inferences we can draw from what the Bible and nature are telling us. I have spent maybe close to ten years on that, and have been rather pleased with much of that outcome. I have begun to recognize the process of cultural change/evolution as a source of natural revelation. Not that cultural thought is trustworthy across the board, but that it accumulates truth over time much like science does. The integration of human wisdom is distilled into our laws, and over time we tend to refine certain base level definitions of good and evil which appear to be a reflection of G-d’s perspectives. I have begun to use some of those affirmations as a crosscheck against some of the thorny theological issues, and have found that productive to shed light. This is why I wish to learn more about how others view these same issues.
Somewhere along the way quite some time ago, I read Love Wins. When I first read it, I felt like Bell was rather far off base. As my process unfolded, I adjusted my perspective to view his thoughts as righter than I first thought, but not supported well via Scripture in his writing. I see he has written some follow on material, and perhaps I should read that to see what else he has learned. I now think there is good support for his perspectives and I think it is needed and important to get it out there.
We share a dislike/disdain for the concept of unending suffering. As I mentioned before, this is something that doesn’t fit well. My son reminded me of a country phrase recently, “That dog don’t hunt.” I see no purpose in that perspective and as I said before, I plan to research that more to discover the human error there. But, I’m still not ready to step the whole way with you as I see our existence carefully designed and constructed to facilitate a moral choice for each responsible human. I agree that we are all flawed morally by design, and that salvation only comes through Christ, but being made in the image of G-d, we have moral culpability/responsibility as we make sovereign choices in our flawed existence. Like the magnetized needle on the floating cork, we each seek alignment with G-d or away from G-d. We are now ruled by one law, the Royal law, loving your neighbor as yourself. I see it that G-d can be sovereign and simultaneously we can be free-willed and responsible for our choices.
With the other thief on the cross, Jesus didn’t speak to him, and only G-d knew his heart. At the judgement, we may all hear his story and S & G’s stories. I think we will all be satisfied with the justice of that outcome no matter which way it goes. My perspective is that I believe heaven will contain many more people than I ever expected when my previous perspectives were so narrow. I now recognize the host of people who rarely darken a church door, but who honor well their neighbors and thereby the G-d who made them.
No fear! 
Jack
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I attended an Alpha course as well. I remember being so impressed with the video presenter. That guy never seemed to misspeak and every sentence was like well honed prose. Who can do that?
I relate very well to how judgmental we Christians can be. I’m a combination of saddened and infuriated to hear of how you were treated. The young are most given to the syndrome, but it’s not confined to them. Jesus said, forgive them for they know not what they do. A bit of spiritual knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The idea that one should be reported for believing something is morosely funny.
I’m truly sorry to hear that, and I know experiences like that can leave a lasting aftertaste.
Jack
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Hello Jack.
I see its little late. I will be with you shortly.
Thank You. May God bless you.
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Hello Jack,
Please forgive me for taking so long. I hope to answer more issues of concern.
I agree that Biblical truth too often tends to be improperly presented. There are multitudes of ways of improper presentation that has caused much confusion and that it’s too often presented in ways that are ineffective and even counterproductive to many.
We are aware that Jesus used parables to help people picture difficult spiritual concepts in their natural minds. With Jesus claiming Himself the truth, what did He need to hide from the people because they weren’t as scientific as we are today?
What would have kept them from thinking millions of moons (years) if they were presented such and wanted to believe it? People of ancient cultures were more technology savvy than we tend to think.
Are we wiser than those of Jesus’ time? By whose wisdom? By man’s or God’s? Why does history repeats itself?
The Bible is sufficient for pointing us to the way of salvation with no need for any modifications in its presentation. By proclaiming Himself the way, the truth, and the light, isn’t Jesus all we need?
How and where did we arrive at knowledge of the fall of man within the supposed 18 billion year time frame? By what scientific laws do we supposedly know this?
Is Jesus or fallible scientists our ultimate source of knowledge?
The field of science has its limitations. Let’s not forget that despite the fact that the Nazi scientists were among the best in the world, why was there nothing to stop them from performing destructive experiments on live humans?
The Bible is our technical manual that cross sections fallen, imperfect, wayward human nature in the eyes of holy, righteous and merciful God. It maps out and models the deadly path of corruption that sin takes us and also maps and models God’s grace that delivers from the worst of situations. Are the human failures the things that make the Bible appear as if imperfect?
The Bible is also the "math’ book for our souls that contain “formulas” like, “love that neighbor,” etc. Neither have the precepts in math books such as 2+2 originated with man. We work our spiritual “math” with our prayer lives.
That’s why Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 instructs His church to preach the gospel throughout the world unto the end. As for those that never heard of Jesus, we find help in Romans 2:13-15 that you read.
From these we find that all of mankind has basic precepts of God’s laws in their conscience that may be obeyed or violated. God will thus judge based on how the conscience was obeyed. May we then think of how much better it would be when the gospel is presented to cultures familiar only with these basics? What should we do with,
“The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest (Luke 10:2).”
God is sending.
God is with you with your thoughts against people being trashed in hell. You probably by now read my post to Klax where I expressed that hell is the very least thing God wants for His created beings–the VERY least!!
I take it that you too are as unhappy as I am about our children of this generation being carried to hell in a hand basket. Boys are boys and girls are girls and abortion is murder and pi does not equal to 9.13. I never thought the time would come when children would be encouraged to change sexes. The only way to change a constant is to turn it into a lie.
I learned for myself that if there’s a general feeling of uneasiness, maybe it could be a sign of God’s calling for a purpose yet to be revealed.
You are correct that scientific revelation is from God. Ohm’s law is God’s law that bears the name of him that discovered it. You are probably familiar with fractals based on the Mandelbrot Set. I have watched a video that shows how the math involved helps us to see how God expresses Himself in nature around us through numbers.
But natural revelation only helps us in the natural realm. Jesus teaches us things in the spiritual realm that’s above the grasp of the natural mind.
It is written:
Lines from 1 Corinthians 2:14-16:
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”
“For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
The mind of Christ is the supernatural mind that thinks like Christ given to the born again believer. He that’s born again finds himself experiencing a whole new world of knowledge and deeper understanding.
Are scientists with their limited natural minds able to know the supernatural mind of God to instruct Him?
Thank you much for your compliment!
I am very happy to help as much as I can with the help of the Lord.
Yes, we are all fallible and know only a small fraction of the sum total of knowledge. How then may we know that even what we now know won’t be later disproved by things we yet know? We know we can trust what we presently know because we know it was spoken by Him that knows everything. That’s God.
Earl
Earl
Thanks for your carefully worded response!
My main point here is that G-d chose not to violate our technical knowledge to avoid unmasking His existence scientifically. The Bible could easily have been written to prove the existence of G-d, but it wasn’t written that way. If Jesus had taught unknowable truths, it would have scientifically outted G-d. This threatens the era of faith. I believe that G-d worked hard to distance Himself scientifically to implement the era of faith as an important design criteria for the universe. I think we need separation to create a free environment for our free-will to chose between good and evil without G-d starring us in the face as we do that. Freedom from intimidation to make our own choices.
I agree that science has its limitations. I’m not thinking science will bring the light to non-believers as much as I hope to see science bring light to believers. We need to view the total picture to allow us to adjust our theology in the places where it may just be off-base a bit. That’s a concern of mine.
My view here is only slightly different. Yes, we are called to preach the Gospel, but I think Romans 2 is telling us that the gospel is not the only provision of G-d. We know that many never hear about Jesus, and even those who do hear may not have been accountably confronted with sufficient information. Romans 2 describes a path to G-d that is powered by Jesus, but not known as Jesus-salvation. There is only one Savior, but we know that not everyone in heaven has known the Savior.
I am counting on natural law to impact Christians most. If anyone is going to get the Bible interpreted correctly, it is us. That is our job, and I don;'t think we are done. My guess.
Jack
Hello Jack,
We know science as one of the tools God gave to man by which man rules the earth according to God’s command. God will not interfere with that. He will only judge us in the end according to how we use science.
You are correct that God. the Master Scientist wants us to serve Him by our choice from our hearts instead of hypocritically as if coerced. Thank you.
We saw earlier that according to Romans, God will judge those that were never exposed to the gospel by how they obeyed basic truth revealed to the conscience of all of mankind.
But God’s ways and commands given us are sure.
Have you considered Jesus’ having His own unique plans of actions that await each of us that’s beyond your or my guesses? Are we tuned in? He calls us to His prescribed actions. What are His calls for us? What is His call for you?
Do you remember where Jesus told Peter that He will make Peter a Fisher of men? I tend to think that He would also love to have “engineers” for men that love to ponder and solve spiritual technical issues.
We learn in scripture that God’s ways are not our ways and our ways are not His ways. Thus,
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD (Isaiah 55:8).
Aren’t we happy to be summoned to the very high calling of God who has very great things for us? We seek God’s plan in our prayers.
Earl
Hello Scott,
But what do we do with the following?
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day (Genesis 1:31)
And,
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die (Genesis 3:3).
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:(Genesis 3:4)
And the consequences,
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return (Genesis 3:19).
In other words Adam and Eve would die as consequence of their disobedience.
Wasn’t it the stain of sin and the consequent fall that brought about destruction?
Earl
Some things to consider is that prior to the law, sin existed but people were not held accountable to it. Romans 5:13.
Something to consider is that in the story what keeps Adam and Eve alive is the tree of life. Why would immortal beings need a tree of eternal life? It’s because that tree’s fruit have them eternal life.
God told Adam on the day they touch it they will die. So on that day they died. It obviously was not a physical death because they continued on afterwards and bore at least three sons. So that death must have been something spiritual in nature and that’s how Satan deceived them. He deceived them by using the fact they won’t physically die on that day to make it less fearful.
Physical death already would have been in the world. Plants died to be eaten, fungi decomposing dead things and so on. If everything was going to keep multiplying, earth would have been over ran so much in just a few centuries. So it make sense that death would have occurred already, and did occur, which is why Adam and Eve was mortal from the start and sustained by the tree.
Also, God did say the world is very good which isn’t the same as perfect. Very good left room open for humanity to have to work to keep it maintained and in order.
Thank You Earl. Yes this is true. I am thinking of its meaning this way. I had a dog that got into trouble all the time and I am pretty sure that he was a sinner but dont think animals are sinners but they must obey the laws of existence. everything that exist in this world is destroyed and dies as a law of its physical existence in this world. It is a price for the organization of its existence.
We were made in Gods image and we lived in His perfection in the garden of Eden as we were obediant and connected to God. We chose to separate from God by disobeying him as we wanted to be like God for the self fulfilment of our ego, to know ourselves and be divine. In this separation from God we became as all in this world that must die (and also needing to plough the fields). This separation. amounts to duality that some talk about. Which to me is an aspect of our consciousness and ultimately what we call our spirituality.
Earl,
Thanks for your perspectives!
I agree that G-d’s Word is sure, but it’s the human element that concerns me.
I think “calling” is multifaceted and varies from person to person. Some like Paul are explicitly called in an overt and direct way, but these callings appear to be few and far between. It seems clear to me that Paul was created/chosen for his zeal for G-d and his formal training. His rough road to enlightenment also served to prepare him for the life he led. He was a whirling dervish and a single minded dynamo of energy and purpose, perhaps seeking to compensate for his poor start.
For many, we are built and situated in time with and for a purpose. I, unlike most people I know, pretty much knew what I wanted to do in life by 6th grade. I had a passion for electricity and electronics, and my curiosity drove my inquires. Somehow, G-d sprinkled a love for theology in there as well, probably via my interest in understanding how everything works.
Right now in my retirement years, I have been sensing a calling to something new. Of course we have Scripture, to lead us, which is the authoritative truth, but I think G-d is expecting the mature to extrapolate more about G-d and righteousness. David for example decided to feed his starving men the sacred temple bread. I’m willing to bet that there was no chapter or verse he could have referenced that would have told him it was acceptable to do that. He, knowing the heart of G-d, chose to break the rules and he was commended for it. He chose well, because he understood the heart of G-d. He understood the essential difference between sin and righteousness, and he chose to do what was life giving believing it to be right. I doubt any priest would have agreed with him, but who knows. I think they would have been too fearful.
One Example:
In today’s world westerners have, I think rightly, recognized that torture is not righteous. We didn’t arrive at that conclusion out of rebellion against G-d. We collectively have recognized the evil it represents, and I think that realization is something G-d built into us to bubble forth at some point in our social maturing process/history. I see this as a form of natural revelation. The Bible doesn’t teach that torture is wrong in a direct way, just like the Bible didn’t directly teach that American slavery was morally wrong; but G-d did indeed expect that we would recognize it as wrong at some point in time. Abraham Lincoln was one visionary who saw it and believed it in his heart, and his calling was to change the world through the power of his conviction and through the miraculous timing and providence of G-d.
I’m not yet sure how we arrived here, but Christianity has been teaching a message of eternal torture for sinners. It is my opinion that this is due to a human error of interpretation, and I think we should be searching for that error. Knowing G-d as we know G-d, most of us see death as a reasonable termination of life. Even in capital punishment cases, we collectively believe that a death sentence should be compassionate or natural. Spiritual death should follow suit since eternal torture does not fit the crime and is not compassionate. The penalty for sin is death. An unending death is not death. The word perish has a clear meaning. I think G-d expects us to know Him better than that, and He expects us to locate and correct our errors in teaching.
I believe that recognizing and highlighting the possibility of theological errors has become part of my current calling. I am using natural law, a knowledge of the essence of sin and righteousness, and the character of G-d as a cross-check of my conservative beliefs. The hardest part has been freeing my mind from the dogma of 50+ years of confirmation bias. Accepting an ancient universe was step one. Accepting the implications of social evolution was step two, and the beat goes on.
I fully expect that the Bible will continue to stand the test of time unchanged, but it’s our understanding of its meaning that needs to be brought into question and alignment. I believe the future of Christianity is at stake in light of the cultural maturing of humankind. G-d’s truth as recorded in Scripture must align with G-d’s truth as revealed through natural law.
I recognize the subjective nature of what I’m saying, but if in our immature faith we missed some things and then managed to communicate that to countless masses over the millennia, then we must be capable of making mid-course corrections and moving on. This seems like a reasonable outcome of social evolution. Certainly, I cannot be the only one to hold these perspectives.
Jack
Been away, sorry for the delay.
You will want to check out the Lemon test:
In essence, it is unconstitutional to use government resources to evangelize for a religion. Laws, policies, and government actions must have a secular purpose and neither inhibit nor advance religion. IOW, the First Amendment tells the government to stay out of religious affairs and leave it to the citizens.
A judge should not be allowed to stop the trial and request that everyone involved pray towards Mecca. That’s the difference.
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