Aren’t Miracles Scientifically Impossible?

@bren @Patrick
Even if only rarely, can it happen the other way around: that Faith leads the way to better science? Perhaps someone taking part in this discussion knows more than I do of the history of the relationship between Darwin and Wallace, the co-discoverers of evolution via natural selection. After some hesitation, Darwin followed up “Origin of Species” with “Descent of Man”, claiming in the latter that humankind’s unique character developed through natural selection which was slow and without direction. Apparently Wallace had a ‘gut feeling’ (prompted by his Faith?) that this could not be so. In a way, both were right: the Homo sapiens genome resulted from ‘normal’ evolutionary processes; on the other hand, modern human behavior appeared suddenly through some ***epi-***genetic process.

It still took the science of archeology to verify this Great Leap Forward that transformed Brain to Mind and produced a creature that could seek out its Creator. But perhaps it was Faith that provided patience to follow the clues that this transformation is real, and will, hopefully lead to a scientific understanding of its epigenetic mechanism. Without the faith in a rational Universe, science could not proceed. And so they both should proceed hand in hand. And, in these modern times, science will take the lead more often than not. Even so, for most of us, religious faith is superior to scientific faith in providing a sense of purpose that makes it easier to face life’s challenges
Al Leo

1 Like

Do you know if your beliefs are true? Does that matter to you? Would you believe in them anyway even if they were shown to be very likely untrue? If you were born in another place and time, do you think you would have the same beliefs? Or beliefs in something else?

Al,
Going to call you out on this one - “modern human behavior appeared suddenly through some epi-genetic process.” Don’t agree as many human behaviors are present in other primates and mammals. Got to be more precise - what human behaviors? what is rapidly? what are those epi-genetic processes?

Regarding Archeology did you see the carved wooden face from Siberia has been dated to 11,000 years ago? Shows that at 11,000 years ago the people of the Urals were as culturally advanced as peoples of the Mid-East. World Famous Shigir Idol is Twice as Old as Stonehenge! [New Study] | Ancient Origins

Do you now need to relook at what you mean by modern human behavior? And when and where it appeared?

This seems to be a change in directions. You have not addressed your mistaken understanding of how the term “faith” is to be understood, instead redirecting it into a question of how my own faith is founded. As interesting as such a discussion would be, it is obviously beside the point at best and evasive at worst. No one is denying that upbringing and culture have a big influence on what one finds to be convincing and on what range of intellectual options are available, although I’m extremely doubtful that my faith can be blamed on my upbringing. Unless this is some kind of extended lead up to committing the genetic fallacy, I just don’t see how this is directly material to what we were discussing.

Are you really asking me if it matters to me whether my beliefs are true? That’s cheeky whether or not it’s rhetorical. Anyway, you are once again straying into rhetorical question territory instead of making your points directly, so I once again have to play the interpreter. I could, but I think I won’t. Please clarify your points if you can.

Don’t lecture me. I am very content living a very good and moral life without faith.

I’m only dinging you for changing the subject instead of addressing my points and for forcing me to guess what points you are trying to make instead of actually making them. These are formalities that would be helpful, not sins that must be purged. And I’m hardly having a go at your lifestyle so far as I could tell. I hadn’t yet worked up to the “repent and be baptized” line that I had planned for a few comments down the road. Anyway, I’m perfectly willing to discuss, but I do like the discussion to be slightly more focused so that it can actually get somewhere. I honestly think it would be helpful for you to shed some of the preconceptions that you seem to be burdened with insofar as you feel led to comment on religious belief. Thoughts?

Sure, but realize who you are conversing with.

Hi Patrick
I didn’t know about the 11,000 yr. old wooden face found in the Urals, but it fits a belief in the GLF that happened around 40,000 yrs. BP.

Good questions. Perhaps the most striking behavioral difference between Homo sapiens and their most advanced relatives, the Neanderthals, is the common practice of burials with valuables suited for an afterlife. This is strong evidence for some sort of religious experience. Cave art and sculpture show an appreciation for symbolism, especially the figure of a human with the head of a lion. This appeared about 40,000 yrs. B.P. in the Cro-Magnon culture, and their success cooperating as larger social groups is strong indication they had a much greater command of symbolic language. The time for this ‘transformation’ to occur is not known precisely, but it was obviously much shorter than could have been caused by the most favorable of mutations passed on through sexual generation. So it was probably epi-genetic.

The study of epigenetic mechanism is a hot topic currently. One area of research that looks promising in this regard involves the brain methylome, as described by Gabel & Greenberg, Science V.341, 626-627 (2013). DNA methylation in mammalian genomes regulates gene expression, but it seems to have an added function in the brain where it is important in the maturation of neurons in the process of development.

Another line of research looking for epigenetic causes of the Great Leap Forward that produced modern humans would be to take a closer look at the ‘pruning” method of brain development. It has been known for over a century that normal brain development involves reducing the number of brain cells, rather than increasing them. Dawkins (Nature, 229 (1971) p. 118) likened this to a sculptor chipping off bits from a block of marble to reveal the form of the figure ‘concealed’ inside. Neural circuits in the brain need to be reinforced by use or else they fade away. ‘Use it or lose it’.

I fully expect that science will elucidate the biological mechanism of how Brain was (and is) transformed into Mind. But that does not eliminate God’s role in the process.
Al Leo

Am I supposed to know who I am conversing with? You’ve managed to confuse me again.

I just finished reading a new 2015 book you might enjoy. “Sapiens - A Brief History of Humankind” by Y. Noah Harari. It really give a very detailed look at mankind from 70,000 year BP to now. Fascinating look at the transition from Hunter gather societies to farming. Even gets into the selective breeding of grains and animals. The figurine of the human and the lion from 32,000 years ago was discussed at length and aligns with your ideas on cultural evolution. You’d like it.

Thanks, Patrick. Technology is great sometimes. One click and “Sapiens…” on its way to me.
Al Leo

I think you going really enjoy it. I did. When you are done I would love to discuss anything you find interesting in it.

Al

FWIW The co-discover of natural selection didn’t limit his teleology to the phenomenon of mind, but considered providential personal agency to be behind every aspect of evolution. Even the varieties of trees evolved with the specific good of mankind in mind.

His claim was that a lifetime of science had persuaded him of this, and not religious faith. But of course that is an impossible distinction, as you rightly say in showing that faith underlies the very practice of science. Certainly, one can trace the developing agnosticism of Darwin from deism to run somewhat ahead of his science (so theory followed faith commitment in time), and one can trace Wallace’s belief in a spirit world developing during his earliest explorations in biology, so it informed his whole career and may even have been a conclusion from the evidence.

The fact is, though, that equally great scientists, and co-authors of the same theory, had radically different interpretations of the theory’s implications for religious belief.

For anyone interested, two links to articles of mine (a) regarding a late interview of Wallace and (b) reviewing his last important book. Both show the central thought of a significant and sadly neglected Evolutionary Creationist.

Were you interested in offering a response to the above review of the word “faith”? Does it offer a different perspective on the concept? Does it seem more reasonable and sustainable to you? Would you drop your view in favor of one that better matches the biblical perspective or is it immaterial for you what the original meaning was since so many people (Christian and non-Christian) have such an odd and irrational perspective on it today? If you were willing to confine your criticism only to those modern believers who view “blind faith” and lack of evidence as somehow virtuous, you would probably find that your were making a totally legitimate point and I would hardly disagree.

Al,
here is a new result for you. Genome of early farmer in Spain. First ancient genome recovered from Mediterranean area: Farmers from Central Europe and the Mediterranean area have a common origin -- ScienceDaily
Patrick

Jon, thanks for sending the links to your articles. They contain a ‘plethora of riches’ relating to how Wallace regarded humans evolving through natural selection. It will take me some time to digest it all, but I was interested in just how his belief in spiritualism affected how he applied scientific methodology. I noted how he considered ‘necessary utility’ as a red herring, and I surmised that he was aware that sometimes evolution produced exaptation. I view exaptation as an understudied phenomenon, and the enlargement of the primate brain as a prime example. If brain wiring were optimized (which Darwinian evolution cannot do), I believe we could operate in modern society with only 10% of the 1,400 cc brain humans are now endowed with.
Al Leo

Al

I probably won’t try to rewire my brain any time soon, until I have a rather better idea of how it works. Fortunately the time I have left to operate in modern society is limited…

Jon

Have you accessed ‘adult hydrocephalus’ on Google? It shows the CT scan of a Frenchman’s skull that shows less than 10% of his brain matter left intact. That’s less than the Australopithicus afarensis, Lucy’s. He was doing OK in modern society. HIs brain must have remained ‘optimally wired’ during the process that hydrocephalus was shrinking it.
Al

Al

I’ve seen that case-study used to argue for the immaterial nature of mind, which is not an unreasonable line to take. But if we apply it to your scenario, you’re apparently suggesting that the generic human brain that developed suboptimally because it was subject to natural selection was, in the case of this guy, rendered more efficient by gross disease. I can’t quite follow the reasoning of that: in a long medical career I never experienced any diseases that improved human design. Not that I can explain the particular instance.

But you raise a general conundrum. Firstly, in most cases (like the human brain) we have no idea how optimal it is, or isn’t, because we don’t understand even what it does, let alone how its physical structure enables it (eg, does consciousness belong to the brain, or not?). We do know that all of it is used all the time, contrary to the old urban myths that we only use a few percent of it.

Secondly, to both Darwin and Wallace, NS was an optimisation process constantly honing organisms - both used it to account for the perfection they observed in nature. Darwin waxes quite lyrical about it in OoS.

Thirdly, on theoretical grounds NS is now believed to be a bodging tinkerer, incapable for various detailed, but important, reasons like channel capacity of optimisation - ergo, the brain (for example) must be inefficient.

Fourthly, though, there are numerous documented instances of optimisation that can be gauged by information theory (like the near-optimal DNA code itself) or by the laws of physics (such as the efficiency of the compound eye and many others). So in these cases, NS must have managed to excel itself - or else one must say that natural selection wasn’t the only, or even the key, design mechanism in these cases. It’s certainly hard to argue for a process that’s fundamentally incapable of optimisation, except when it achieves it.

Fifthly, from Wallace’s point of view (as we’ve discussed above) mere functionality is not all that is to be observed in nature: he saw an overall pattern. And so apparently sub-optimality at the organismal level, whether due to NS or not, might be observed to optimise things at the ecological level - an inefficient camouflage could optimise predation rates for the ecosyestem as a whole. Or optimisation might occur even at the level of human benefit, for Wallace saw evolution as subsumed in the providential care of mankind. For all his heterodoxy, such a view is pretty close to the Christian doctrine of creation - John Walton says the central theme of creation is cosmic function (not organismal efficiency), and the Genesis creation account is undeniably deeply anthropocentric.

With all those considerations in mind, one needs to define pretty closely on what basis one can say that the human brain is “suboptimally wired by natural selection”. Is it verifiable, or just hypothesis piled on hypothesis? Ie, “We believe NS to be the main biological agent of design; we believe NS on theoretical grounds to be incapable of optimisation; ergo we deduce that the unfathomable human brain is probably jerry-built and speculate that some non-existent process could improve it.”

Jon

Please dont rewire your brain. I believe it has achieved optimization.

I have been absent from this forum for quite some time so I apologise to all if I make some errors in this new (for me) format.

I wanted to comment on the issue of the OP regarding miracles. As Keller makes clear, by definition a miracle is a one time event that cannot be studied scientifically, since all scientific methods I know of require an assessment of reproducibility and objective confirmation. That puts any miracle outside of scientific investigation. What is interesting is that the same problem applies to many other phenomena besides religious accounts of miracles. Unexpected, impossible to explain, unpredictable events occur all the time in several fields of science. We call it chaos theory. The extreme dependence on initial conditions, discovered a few decades ago, that rules the weather, the stock market, populations of various animals, and so on, are deterministic events that are about as surprising as miracles. They can even at times seem to disobey the laws of nature (of course they dont). They are clearly real or true, or whatever term one wants to use. Are reports of miracles less real, less true? I believe they arent, we just havent found any method (unlike the difference equations of chaos theory with its attractors) with which to describe them in scientific terms. There is certainly no reason to disbelieve in them, any more than to disbelieve in most of the natural phenomena we witness on a daily basis.

1 Like