Apologetics that uses condescension / insult

And further still to:

Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. ~ 1 Peter 2:11-12 (NIV2011)

And especially:

When they hurled their insults at him, he [Jesus] did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. (v23)

I mean the whole context of the letter is how to live as the New Humanity with New Creation values in a hostile setting.

5 Likes

The sign of the Cross is a declaration of the faith: it starts high, symbolizing the Father; then goes low (the diagram in your image is wrong), symbolizing the Incarnation and descent into death; then comes back up, symbolizing the Resurrection; then goes to the sides, symbolizing the Holy Spirit binding Christians together as well as gathering more; and returns to the center to remind us that the message is all about Christ Who was crucified.

Contrary to the false diagram is the rather crude humorous summation of how to make the sign of the Cross on yourself: “Spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch”, that goes back to a time when a man carried his wallet in an inside jacket pocket and carried a pocket watch in an inside pocket on the opposite side.

= - =

edit: I note that the post I was responding to got removed while I was typing.

This thread, with its talk about badly behaved evangelists and apologists, reminded me of an important lesson that I learned as a teenager.

When I was fourteen years old, for several weeks in church we were subjected to one sermon after another on the subject of persecution. Week after week after week, preacher after preacher after preacher would tell us all about how awful things were in society, and how if we really were walking with Christ then we should expect to be treated badly and vilified by those around us, and how if we weren’t being treated badly and vilified by those around us, then we were Doing It Wrong.

It was all pretty depressing stuff, but it was pretty depressing stuff that I could relate to. At the time, I was having a rough time at school. I was struggling to fit in, to make friends and to settle down, and I was getting bullied a lot. There were various reasons for this—among them the double culture shock of moving from Scotland to the south of England and from an upmarket fee-paying prep school to a local comprehensive, and no doubt there was an element of the “why nerds are unpopular” factor in the mix as well—but all these sermons on persecution provided my adolescent mind with a completely different explanation: it was because I was a Christian, taking a stand for righteousness, and the fact that I was struggling socially was evidence that I was Doing It Right.

This just ended up making the problem worse, because it left me viewing myself as somehow superior to my classmates, believing that I was the adult human being in the room while they were all acting like Neanderthals. I stopped even trying to make friends, and I even ended up viewing the other teenagers at church who were doing a better job of fitting in socially than I was as some sort of lukewarm compromisers. Try to imagine a cross between Sheldon Cooper and Ken Ham and you’ll get the picture.

It was more than a year later that it started to dawn on me that maybe I wasn’t Doing It Right. There was one day when I was sitting on my own at lunchtime, reading and writing, as I usually did, when a group of my classmates invited me to come and join in their conversation. They weren’t being nasty, they really were trying to be friendly. They said to me that they thought I should join in with their lunchtime conversations on a regular basis because they were interested in hearing what I had to say and just sitting on my own wasn’t doing me any favours in that respect.

So I did—and I really enjoyed it. That lunchtime conversation was the turning point at which I started to make friends, fit in socially, be taken seriously—and have some really great and fruitful conversations about Jesus. It wasn’t all plain sailing of course—the sermons on persecution did have some valid points to make—but it made me realise that much of the flak that I’d been getting had not been on account of my faith, but on account of some really bad attitudes that I’d ended up cultivating.

The problem with all those sermons about persecution wasn’t with what they said, but with what they didn’t say. There is one particular point that every pastor needs to hammer home to their congregations whenever they teach about persecution, and it is this.

There is a difference between being persecuted for being a Christian and being “persecuted” for being a jerk.

I learned the lesson, but it seems that there are a lot of other Christians out there who haven’t. There are a lot of other Sheldon Cooper/Ken Ham hybrids who believe that they’re being persecuted for being a Christian when in actual fact they are only getting flak for things that really are a problem and that they really do need to stop doing—such as aloofness, condescension or dishonesty.

12 Likes

Assuming the atheist did not seek this conversation or has made it clear she is not interested in continuing, the problem is framed as if it is the atheist’s problem or responsibility to fix it.

Advice to the atheist: Treat this like any other type of verbal abuse, if the apologist won’t leave you alone. Call for security or some other kind of help. Report verbal abuse at work and on campus, etc.

Advice to the apologist/s, the one/s who really need advice after all:
Be quiet. Shush. Hold your tongue. You’ve lost your audience. Shut up before you lose all credibility. You can’t drive someone to Jesus, but you can sure drive them away.

I’ve watched that happen. Here.

Go pray. Confess. Intercede for yourself as well as the rest of us.

5 Likes

I’ve learned too late, here, that if someone appears to be interested in having a cordial, even superficially philosophical conversation but interjects sideways digs at Christianity and also expresses presuppositions that are absolutely at odds with Christianity and will not have it any other way, don’t waste your time. Walk away and shake the dust off your feet as Jesus told his disciples to do and as he himself said to those who rejected the spiritual realm or at least resurrection, the Sadducees, saying “You are badly mistaken” and that’s all. That doesn’t mean you cannot go to a bar and eat and talk with someone who is lost and who is genuine.

1 Like

Better that than providing yet one more contentious encounter that confirms the atheist’s already jaded view of the faith and its “reps.”

1 Like
  • Beg yer pardon, Barry, … but I’m a little confused.
  • If Trinitarian inerrantists are harassing you on your property or in public, call the police and/or get a restraining order.
  • “Should the atheist conclude”? Really? Since when is an atheist interested in any “biblical data”, convoluted or not?
  • “Or should the atheist conclude that … God in his mysterious ways wants the atheist to keep to keep searching for this answer?” If you’re an atheist who is willing to believe that God wants you to keep searching for a Christian who makes sense, I think you may be more confused than I am.
1 Like

I would shake the dust off my feet if I were the atheist. No need to talk to jerks.

Live such lives among nonbeliever that when they see your good works and glorify your father in heaven…

But honestly, it’s not worth discussing with these people. Their faith has not changed or matured them yet.

Thanks

I think your support of this person will help them realize not all Christians are jerks.

5 Likes

People often mistake Jesus for being nice when he talks about turning the other cheek

What bothers me even more is when others somehow come out with a manipulative or even violent Jesus as they do all the theological gymnastics necessary to explain away what he taught and turn him into the Rambo that they really want.

2 Likes

Rambo? I get the Jesus and John Wayne critique… but the Rambo thing may be a relic of the crusades where I hope it never resurfaces. Seriously

But I also see a tragic and almost compulsive Penner-like fear of “violence” in apologetics

Heaven forbid the apologist thinks he or she is right

1 Like
  • You need to get out more often …

AngryJesus1

2 Likes

Whoa. Are those created by AI, or more creepily by humans?

  • (A) I didn’t create them.
  • (B) The first is what you get when you Google for “Jesus as Rambo” images. The second was a billboard seen and photographed, I presume, by Ben Myers on his blog at Jesus FAIL. November 30, 2010, by Ben Myers
  • Bottom line: To your question, I don’t know; but I suspect they were “created” by humans.
4 Likes

The apologist is welcome to think he or she is right. We all think we’re right. But how we engage with people and treat them matters. We are not the Lord. We are only his representatives in a world that doesn’t even understand or recognize his authority, much less connect the message we bear with it.

To most people outside the church these days we talk about one of many options, some of which maybe be better than others. And most people are very sure they’re fine without whatever we have to offer, which seems to come with a lot of strings and likely abuse.

Why would anyone want to engage with someone from such a group, particularly when the person comes across as arrogant, because they know they’re right, disinterested in the real needs and interests of the human they are approaching, argumentative and just plain pushy? Or on the other end, schmarmy?

The Gospel is not something one can force on people and get any good result. Meaningful discussions may take place over years at a glacial pace. Alienating someone in the meantime, because we know we’re right closes doors that may have remained open. Or locks tight doors that might have cracked a bit in time.

If someone is so turned off by the apologist or the message — in their mind those may be inseperable — that they don’t even want to talk to Christians at all, well, who has that being right helped?

5 Likes

You know now that you mention it, the pictures of Jesus when he returns in Revelation are not that nice

4 Likes

Tremper Longman covers the subject of divine violence about as well as anybody I’ve ever seen

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood… Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword…

Obviously meant to be taken literally :slight_smile:

4 Likes

The atheist should conclude that some Christians are unregenerate jerks and not feed trolls.

People can make the Bible say what they want it to say, unfortunately. There are a lot of Christians out there spouting nonsense to support their bad behavior. And lest you think that it’s only atheists who are getting the “I don’t have to be nice to you, because Jesus” treatment, no they are pretty terrible to Christian women with thoughts as well.

5 Likes

Interestingly (to me at least) Paul’s harshest treatment was not directed at unbelievers, but at “false teachers.” Those would be other teachers of Christian (or Jewish) doctrine that he considered corrupted. It’s just false that he (or Jesus) went around antagonizing people who did not believe. Jesus was always antagonizing the most religious people.

6 Likes