Answers in Genesis admits: still no solution to the heat problem

Faith & Science Conversation
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#21

Or the massive debris cloud reconsolidated into what became the moon.

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#22

Jammycakes…2 Peter 3:8 cannot speak of evolution…the reason why is because of verse 5-7

5But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through whichb the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Christians cannot use that text to support evolutionary driven theology …its simply the wrong reading of the text.

Now to address the other supposedly supporting text Psalms 90:4…again it is simply misreading the passage of scripture. This text is talking about the everlasting God…not the age of the earth. And i point readers to the first 2 verses in that chapter of Psalms as proof such an application of this text is wrong…

1Lord, You have been our dwelling place
through all generations.
2Before the mountains were born
or You brought forth the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting
You are God.

In the bible there are no examples where that principle [day is a thousand years] is used to describe literal historical events (ie dates, times, places, people of past times for the then writer) and there are figures of speech consistently used to convey whether or not something written is meant to be taken as historical fact or not. Generally the day as a thousand years principle is used almost exclusively in prophetic terms outside of this passage and SDA scholars among a number of protestants evangelical religions, use it for exactly that purpose.

I am not debating the scientific issue here and I have no problem with YEC inability to adequately explain various scientific problems. However, even evolutionary science has an enormous number of problematic issues that they have no answers for…so that in and of itself is a red herring to be honest.

For Christians the reality is quite simple…if you continue to push the evolutionary model, you cannot accept the Mosaic Sanctuary model as being historical (because of Exodus 20:8-11). Therefore you are forced into claiming that Moses’ writings are an allegorical story…the problem here is that the very first murder documented in the bible (which breaks commandment 6) clearly shows that both the commandments and sacrificial system were in place more than 1500 years before the time of Moses. These were not Mosaic laws only applicable to the Israelites.

Finally, those who understand the book of Revelation will note that the taking of the gospel to the Gentiles and regular references to God’s people as spiritual Israel (modern saved Christians) are those that:
Revelation 14:12 Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God [including the 4th] and the faith of Jesus.

Christians cannot pick pieces out of the bible in the O.P manner and not run into enormous theological problems.

#23

Well Adam, if you want to argue against the Bible, that is entirely between you and God, but by insisting that it cannot be reconciled with the fact (and it is a fact, get over it) that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and not six thousand, and that humans and animals share a common ancestor, that is exactly what you are doing.

#24

Jammy, the above is just another statement indicative of a willful ignorance of textual reading. I have used the exact same chapters that contain your posted texts to categorically prove that you are wrong on this interpretation. I am not using my words but those of the very writers you quoted!

AS i said, i am not denying the science claim of mantle cooling…i accept that problem, however, your theology is 100% wrong in the application of the texts you posted. Thats all I am saying…you have interpreted the texts wrong and its clearly wrong to anyone who reads those chapters in their entirety…they will easily see that.

and so that you cannot hide Psalm 90 (you intentionally did not include the verses in quoting me)…i will post it again below

Its very clearly attesting to the Everlasting God and His power.

Psalm 90

From Everlasting to Everlasting

A prayer of Moses the man of God.

1Lord, You have been our dwelling place

through all generations.

2Before the mountains were born

or You brought forth the earth and the world,

from everlasting to everlasting

You are God.

3You return man to dust,

saying, “Return, O sons of mortals.”

4For in Your sight a thousand years

are but a day that passes,a

or a watch of the night.

5You whisk them away in their sleep;

they are like the new grass of the morning—

6in the morning it springs up new,

but by evening it fades and withers.

7For we are consumed by Your anger

and terrified by Your wrath.

8You have set our iniquities before You,

our secret sins in the light of Your presence.

9For all our days decline in Your fury;

we finish our years with a sigh.

10The length of our days is seventy years—

or eighty if we are strong—

yet their pride is but labor and sorrow,

for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

11Who knows the power of Your anger?

Your wrath matches the fear You are due.

12So teach us to number our days,

that we may present a heart of wisdom.

13Return, O LORD! How long will it be?

Have compassion on Your servants.

14Satisfy us in the morning with Your loving devotion,

that we may sing for joy and be glad all our days.

15Make us glad for as many days as You have afflicted us,

for as many years as we have seen evil.

16May Your work be shown to Your servants,

and Your splendor to their children.

17May the favorb of the Lord our God rest upon us;

establish for us the work of our hands—

yes, establish the work of our hands!

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#25

Adam,

You are insisting that the Bible can not be reconciled with two of the most well-established and rock-solid facts in the whole of biology and the earth sciences. You might as well be arguing that the Bible can not be reconciled with the fact that 1+1=2, or that Jerusalem is in Israel, or that the sky is blue, or that water is wet, or that London and New York have the Atlantic Ocean in between them. No matter how rock solid you think your theology may be to argue such a thing, if you are arguing that the Bible can not be reconciled with rock solid indisputable facts of objective reality such as these, you are arguing against the Bible. Period.

#26

Those are 24-hour days, but they are analogous days.
 

A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.
Psalm 90:4

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
2 Peter 3:8

#27

It’s ironic that your major edit now includes Psalm 90. :grin:

#28

The age of the Earth and the mountains of evidence demonstrating the lack of a recent global flood are not part of evolutionary science. They are part of the geologic sciences, and there is zero scientific doubt here. There are no problems with the geologic explanations.

The lack of problems for the conclusions in geology is further illustrated by the fact that YEC’s have to insert completely unneeded and superfluous supernatural acts in order to explain away the evidence. In a more general sense, YEC’s also have to assert, with zero positive evidence and mountains of evidence against them, that the most fundamental physical constants and laws would have to be different in the past in order for YEC to work. The consensus in geology doesn’t have to do any of this.

For me, the real kicker is that AiG has to makes people take an oath that they will never accept something as evidence for the consensus view in geology. Why would they have to do that if the evidence were on their side? Why would they have to completely change the laws of physics and insert ad hoc miracles in order for YEC to work if the evidence were on their side?

The massive and enormous theological problem that you seem to have here is that you are insisting on an interpretation of the Bible that makes it false.

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#29

@adamjedgar and all the rest are impervious to the fact that by insisting that Genesis 1 is scientifically correct they are giving science authority over the Bible, making science an idol.

#30

Dale, please explain one of the subsequent verses in the very Psalm you are using to support your claim…didnt the O.P just use Psalm 90:4 to claim a day is a thousand years? Hang on, verse 10 now says 70 years…or if you are strong 80 years!

clearly the interpretation you are putting on this has errors because of verses 9 and 10 of the exact same Psalm (shown below).
Psalm 90:9

9For all our days decline in Your fury;

we finish our years with a sigh.

10The length of our days is seventy years—

or eighty if we are strong—

yet their pride is but labor and sorrow,

for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

Therefore, I can be very confident that I have the correct interpretation of this Psalm because my interpretation is consistent with other biblical passages…in particular Genesis 1 and Exodus 20:8-11

This is the entire problem with unsound Biblical theology…it very quickly conflicts with so many other passages of scripture the whole thing falls apart with irreconcilable differences.

Might i also add at this point, the is no such thing as the Science of Christianity. Christianity is not a science, it is a theology (a world view).

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#31

I think Dr. Francis Collins says it best:

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#32

You cannot make a distinction between man and God, man’s days and God’s days?!
 

Your confidence very poorly founded.

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#33

Frank Collins makes that claim simply because he founded his entire organisation on it. I am not suprised to see a marketing spin support its income source through words such as those above.

The difference here is that Frank Collins believes he will find God in a secular science model that fundamentally makes the following claim:

Stephen Hawking’s final, posthumous book “Brief Answers to the Big Questions” was released, detailing final thoughts the physicist had on the biggest questions humankind faces.

In the book, Hawking wrote “there is no God.” But it’s not the first time the scientist, who died in March, has shared his belief on the subject.

“There is no God,” wrote Hawking, as reported by CNN. “No one directs the universe.”

So in reality, one of the world’s foremost scientists also disagreed with Frank Collin’s attempts to marry God and Science…i find it rather ironic that the vast majority of scientists in this world think that theistic evolution is also wrong! (Stephen Hawking being a prominent example of that cohort and its views)

In any case, i didnt want to start this line of discussion. Honestly, my original aim was to simply say those two passages of scripture do not support any attempt at aligning them with evolutionary timelines. Thats all.

#34

Francis Collins founded an entire organization on it because that is what he believes.

Those are the words of Stephen Hawking. Stephen Hawking is not science. His beliefs and thoughts are his, and his alone.

The vast majority of scientists of all faiths and no faith agree that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, that the universe is 13-14 billion years old, and that there was not a recent global flood. This is because of the evidence.

The unavoidable fact is that the interpretation you are insisting on is not supported by the observable facts of the universe.

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#35

The problems with evolutionary science and mainstream old earth geology are all in the fine details. They concern questions such as whether a particular rock formation is 150 million years old or 175 million years old, or whether species A is more closely related to species B or species C. None of these questions come anywhere close to making so much as a dent in the theory, let alone bringing the entire edifice crashing to the ground.

The heat problem, by contrast, is not just a problem to be solved, as young earthists like to portray it as. It is game over for a young earth. It doesn’t take a “secular” or “materialist” worldview to see this, it isn’t just “marketing spin,” you don’t have to have “been there to see it happen,” and you don’t even need much in the way of scientific literacy. When young earthists themselves have admitted that not only do they need billion fold accelerated nuclear decay but that it is physically impossible to remove the amount of heat that such accelerated nuclear decay would have generated, the only legitimate and honest conclusion that anyone can draw from such an admission is that the earth really is as old as scientists tell us that it is, end of story.

That is why it is totally unreasonable to even attempt to compare the problems with evolutionary science and mainstream old earth geology to the problems with a young earth. It is also why, when I cited 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4, I was doing so in defence of the Bible, not in defence of evolution or deep geological time. And it is why, when you say things like this:

anyone who is not being totally unreasonable will view that as an attack on the Bible, whether that is your intention or not.

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#36

Honestly, anyone who can read can see that you contradict yourself right and left, day or night, days or years.

#37

The vilification of science and scientists is yet another big tell. We are being told that if you accept science you also have to stop believing in God. We are also told that Christians who promote non-YEC views lack character since they are just saying those things to make money. All of this in an attempt to scare people away from looking at the scientific evidence.

None of this would be necessary if the evidence supported YEC. The very act of poisoning the well tells us that YEC’s can’t deal with the evidence in a way that is reasonable and logical. Their only recourse is try to dismiss the evidence with a handwave.

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#38

I was giving a brief summary, of course. The Rose Center for Earth and Space has good information, and there was a good planetarium show called “Cosmic Collisions” a long time ago, narrated by Robert Redford.

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#39

The entire point of the Psalm is that God is everlasting, but we are temporal. Your days are not as God’s days.

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#40

This is an undervalued point. In the Bible, miracles always are obvious, and always are signs that have a significant meaning in their context, pointing to God’s character, love, and provision for his people. They aren’t things we “discover” happened when no one was watching, they definitely aren’t some kind of heavenly magic trick that get people out of trouble for stupid things they said about God.

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