Randal Rauser’s response is a good and important one. He makes the point that prayer is all about relationship, and these prayer studies lose that particular aspect completely.
In fact, they go in exactly the opposite direction. They treat God as if He were some kind of vending machine or laboratory animal. If I were God I’d actually find that kind of approach offensive.
As Jesus said, “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” (Luke 4:12)
It’s more than the “He’s not a tame lion”–Rauser does a good job.
It’s kind of hard to control supernatural variables, isn’t it? And it’s not like God is obligated to answer prayer by healing people.
I think Strobel was pointing out that Jesus gave instructions about how to pray, one of them being, “if you ask anything in my name it will be given to you,” and his point was that you can’t test the efficacy of Christian prayer if you don’t have people who believe in Christian prayer doing the praying. But I agree with the general sentiment that trying to scientifically “prove” prayer works or doesn’t work with some kind of controlled experiment is a little ridiculous.
It really would be odd if prayer was shown to be efficacious in terms of yielding the desired result. It being shown to be true would seem to imply that God was a force of nature to be harnessed by men by mastering the technology of prayer.
Actually there is plenty of very well documented cases. My friend Micael Grenholm wrote a book (in Swedish) called Documented Miracles. He has collected 40 examples of people getting healed where there was (a) clear medical evidence of their illness, and (b) drastic results documented by the medical profession afterwards. Many of these are from Sweden where we have excellent doctors and technical capabilities to investigate illnesses. Several examples also have accompanying spiritual experiences (prophetic leading from the Lord, visions, sensations) making them even more remarkable.
In addition to this we have the research by Candy Gunther Brown, talked about in the episode and the two thick volumes by Craig Keener. Since Keener wrote them he has collected even more stories of the miraculous, with excellent documentation.
Randy Clark wrote a dissertation titled “A Study of the Effects of Christian Prayer on Pain or Mobility Restrictions from Surgeries Involving Implanted Materials”, where he shows of metal implants and other implants in many cases have disappeared, no longer being needed as the bodies have been healed. (Hardly placebo and easily verified using x-ray.)
I wrote a lengthy response in another thread arguing that miracles and theistic evolution go very well hand in hand and that we must not confuse love of science with scientism and a naturalistic worldview. I think it is well worth checking out.
Miracles happen often, but people who don’t believe in the possibility rarely see them.
A friend of mine raised a person from the dead. And I have seen reports from the Cru (formerly Campus Crusade) Jesus
Film Project that reported many miracles, including raising from the dead.
God hasn’t left the planet.
Even my great-grandfather was visited by an angel who predicted his death 3 days later.
I suppose not many of us here have friends that make that claim! I’d be interested in hearing you tell your friend’s story here if you’re so-inclined to share.
…and not that I don’t find your great-grandfathers vision experience potentially interesting too, but when it follows a casual mention of someone being raised from the dead … are we talking resuscitation after few minutes? or shocking the grieving family already in full Lazarus mode? I just finished a 19th century novel where a much beloved character was taken for dead, and left to lie undisturbed for several days; after which they noticed shallow breathing and she got up and resumed life. While it was fiction, I gather this wasn’t all that unheard of back then (hence the stories about “dead ringers” and all). Of course today EMTs would probably do a bit more than just feeling for a pulse. So one hopes there are no accidental burials any more. Embalming would put a real damper on early resurrection possibilities one should think. But I digress … your friend’s story?
It was the version with shocking grieved family, although it was prayer and laying on of hands minutes (not days) after he had died.
The same friend has called down lightning, and I have spoken to a witness to the event.
For that matter, I have also read about raising of the dead from a confidential newsletter from the Jesus Film Project of Campus Crusade (now Cru), a mission that I support financially.
My great-grandfather came to my grandfather’s house when my mother was a little girl. My mother saw and heard the events and told me the story. He said an angel had come and stood at the end of his bed and told him to get ready, that he would die in 3 days. They did not believe him, thinking it was a dream. He assured them that it was really, with an angel glowing bright white. Three days later they found him dead in the bed, having died in his sleep.
That is possible if the soul has not detached from the body yet. It can be days. But it also depends on how badly damaged the body is. If they have vital organs seriously damaged then the body won’t work enough to have consciousness in the physical as in physical experience.
Depends on the miracle type. I believe all miracles concerning events related to what we saw with the laying on of the apostles hands have ceased. Also in the Bible it never stated people had to believe to be blessed by the laying on of hands. For a fact, miracles were often done as a way to convince people of the truth.
I’m a cessationist through and through.
So I don’t believe speaking in tongues, raising the dead or healing the sick instantaneously exists anymore. I don’t believe there is a theological reason to still assume it and I don’t believe any scientific evidence actually exists that shows unexplainable healing of positively identified damage or death. Same as I don’t believe handling deadly venomous snakes exists anymore as a sign to unbelievers.
Could this be interpreted as "each of us is born with the potential of becoming true ‘Images of God’ but only Jesua achieved this goal?
Al Leo
That’s not what it sounds like to me. Being a representative of God is not at all the same thing as being God.
That is why I have some difficulty with the idea of theosis and its practice, but I haven’t studied, for all intents and purposes.
Where do you think the Bible teaches that?
And what would it take to convince you that miracles, speaking in tongues, and such things still exist?
At this moment I don’t have time to go through it. If you google cessationist you may find some blogs on it from a theological angle.
Nothing will convince me of it because I know scripturally it’s ceased. I know people can’t just lay their hands on someone and raise them from the dead, heal them of a cure , and so on. If anyone can, and they won’t to convince me, all they have to do is go to anyone of them thousands of hospitals and heal everyone. Someone that can be proven to have been hurt. Like after the next mass shooting. They just need to head there and place their hands on them and heal and raise them all. Then I’ll accept they did it and then we can debate it through scriptures and see if they can state theologically it was from God.
I think I may have actually made a post at some point about it in here that listed a dozen or so verses and explaining the context of why they ceased.
Part of the way unbelievers knew the christians were true was because of the miracles.
Sometime later on if I did not already I’ll make a post going in depth why I believe what I believe.
I see part of the problem is that you have a view of healing and miracles that is inconsistent with scripture.
Healing and other miracles are done at the prompting of the Holy Spirit; God doesn’t give anyone a magic wand to use as he pleases.
Even Jesus could do no deed of power in his hometown, as Mark records.
6 He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. 2 On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, “Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands! 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary[a] and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense[b] at him. 4 Then Jesus said to them, “Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house.” 5 And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. 6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.
I understand it really well. I even did a paper years ago in every single miracle in the Torah and New Testament was over 100 pages long. Nothing in those verses you posted stated that Jesus was prohibited from doing them. It was the fact almost none came to him because as stated, a prophet is without honor in his home town”. Those people thought it was impossible for Jesus to be anything more than a bastard from the sticks. So they did not come.
Again, when I have time. I’m hash it out with you. We can go text by text and make comparisons on what was done and what was not done and dig into laying on of hands , apostleship, and so on. I just don’t have time now. So don’t take my silence coming up as being baffled. I’m just busy. I’ll try to engage a little a bit. Here is a good place to start.
So I already know all of these answers but I’m curious what you believe.
Is Philip there the evangelist or the apostle? How do we know?
We see Philip carrying out the great commission (acts 2:37-38) and he baptized those that believed. But despite believing, repentance, and being baptized they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. Why is that?
If in acts 2:38 it says when we repent and are baptized into Christ we receive the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. But here in acts 8 they did those things and yet the apostles in Jerusalem had to come down to give them the Holy Spirit. Why is that?
Is there a difference between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and power of the Holy Spirit?
Simon the witch saw that Philip was preforming miracles. Yet the apostles had to be sent down to Samaria to those who believed and were baptized so that the apostles could lay hands on them and they receive the Holy Spirit. What were the apostles needed?
All of those questions tie directly into laying on of hands which is a aspect of miracles.
I look forward to it, as I have seen nothing in scripture which teaches cessation of miracles.
As for your questions:
And, note, Peter didn’t understand that the church was to be opened to the Gentiles. He had to be given the vision three times.
Also note that miracles do not require a laying on of hands. Many miracles occurred without that.
Nothing in scripture says miracles ceased. When specifically do you think they did cease?
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
This is a place for gracious dialogue about science and faith. Please read our FAQ/Guidelines before posting.