Ann Gauger's latest salvo against Dennis Venema's arguments against an original pair of human beings

What if the saying had been changed to … “There is no known natural explanation, but … I’m continuing to look for one.” or perhaps … there may be one -we just don’t know. Would the charge of metaphysical naturalism be dropped if the phrase “bound to be” was dropped? Or is the distinction immaterial since most people don’t continue looking for something on the strength of any conviction less than “bound to be …”?

I only press because such a [potentially] casual choice of word is sometimes expected to carry a very heavy load.

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Hi John,

Good to see you here again.

I’ve been following this thread without chiming in until now.

[quote]That leaves those things that aren’t regular - about which science can’t make predictions anyway, in principle - to be assigned to “chance” if you’re an Epicurean, to hidden laws if you’re a Deist, or to God’s governance of his creation if you’re a theist.
[/quote]

If I understand you posts correctly, there would be no way to determine, in the case above, between chance, hidden laws and God’s governance. That leads to 2 questions,

  1. What is ID trying to determine, if, “natural laws” and design are truly indistinguishable?

  2. Doesn’t ID deny the possibility that God is a methodological naturalist? Maybe the design truly is in the universe. As true as the accusation is that most scientists rule out possibility of design in nature, isn’t it also as true that ID scientists rule out the possibility that there are laws that God implemented from the beginning that are running everything. If that’s true, then isn’t ID about trying to, “prove” certain interpretations of certain parts of the bible, namely early Genesis? (I know that you’re not formally in the ID camp, but you seem to resonate with them).

Thanks!

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You made me laugh out loud. I personally would vote for Jeremiah.
And thank you for understanding the catch 22 that we are in regard to publishing in “peer reviewed journals”.

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The difference between design and natural law is this: information. Natural law produces regularities and information is what is added to natural law to produce biology. Natural law can produce crystals or simple organic compounds, but by itself it cannot produce the information rich molecules such as protein or DNA. That requires sequence information and the information has to come from somewhere.

An atheist would not view that as a God of the gaps argument unless it had already been established conclusively that Jesus really did rise from the dead. I don’t know of any atheist alive who actually believes Jesus rose from the dead and that the only conversation we need to have is how it took place.

I quoted this whole paragraph because there were too many things to deal with separately. Your first sentence that equates God with a methodological naturalist is confused in my opinion. It’s like saying the number seven is green. God is by definition supernatural. He’s not restricted in his methods.

The thing about laws is that they’re lawlike. They are not by themselves capable of producing new information. At least that’s what we ID scientists keep saying. If you can find a law that can do so then you will convince us all. Self organizational theorists like Stuart Kaufman believe that emergent properties arise from law like processes. But the kind of examples he gives fall well short of the kind of information present in biology.

There may be one other confusion present here. Lawlike behavior is something that can be described by equations. The orbits of the planets. Boyles law. But you can’t write an equation to describe the sequence of bases that encodes particular protein. The kind of information you need to build membranes, organelles DNA or protein doesn’t come from natural law. The things that make them up ( lipids, nucleotides, amino acids) have certain properties that are lawlike but in what order they are assembled is not based on law. That is the whole ID argument. So that brings me to my last comment. ID is not based on looking for explanations for scripture or ways to interpret scripture using science. Far from it. We make our arguments based on science using experiments that are scientific and logic that is scientific and mathematical. We don’t quote scripture and we don’t look to Genesis for direction. I don’t know how I can say it more clearly but ID is not the same thing as YEC. And this is one of the big defining differences between us.

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Nice to meet you Jon. I can see why you would not want to have Science be the evidence for God if you are concerned that a sudden scientific revolution would sweep away the evidence. This is in fact one of the criticisms of ID that I have heard. It is in essence the argument that relying on gaps in scientific knowledge is dangerous, because the gaps will get filled, and people’s faith will be crushed.

God does hide, but he hides in plain sight. Without using scientific argument, we can still see the evidence of design all around us. Even Dawkins acknowledges this and says that we have to keep reminding ourselves that it’s not designed.

I’d like to submit that it is possible for belief in God to arise from nature itself. I myself as a young teenager did not believe in God until I spent some time riding in the hills of Kansas where the wildflowers and the meadowlarks lived. It was the beauty and the order of nature that convinced me of God. Not the other way around. I know other people for whom this is true. We are all subject to existential doubt. Circumstances can assail us. This is independent of the foundation of our belief. Perhaps we came from a belief in a creator and then saw evidence of design in nature, or we saw evidence of design in nature and then came to believe in a creator

One last thing—I’ve been talking about God and Creator. But I should clarify— ID only leads us to agency, not to God, We can say there is formal and final causation but we can’t identify who that is or what, not without moving to realms of philosophy and metaphysics. .

I’ve enjoyed what you’ve written and find it quite insightful and meaningful. So I am glad to make your acquaintance.

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Actually what I said was that we wouldn’t waste our money on experiments that wouldn’t work because they were based on evolutionary principles. That’s not the same thing as saying we tried it, it didn’t work, and then we either try it again or we proclaim a miracle. No one does science that way.
Every scientist needs to know how to evaluate a protocol as to whether it will work or not, or whether it’s worth giving it a try. Totally ridiculous and impossible protocols are not tried.
If and when it becomes completely clear that there is no way for origin of life studies to work., I hope that scientists will realize this and devote their energies elsewhere. Right now the paradigm forbids that, or rather I should say it leads scientist to think there must be an answer, because, after all, how did we get here? So we spend money on experiments that yield little or nothing. (Well no, that’s not completely true. We have learned something about RNA enzymes and what they’re capable of.)
James Tour has written and very interesting article on this subject in the journal Synthese. I recommend it.

As for how you misrepresented ID, see the posts I have written above. We perform experiments just like everybody else. We set out to ask a question by designing a protocol, we test our protocol, then we look for results. Did I mention miracle? No.

First, I want to commend you for the measured tone you display in this thread, in spite of the ill conceived comments from some. I am not an ID advocate, nor an EC, YEC, TE or any of these outlooks that seem to me to gravitate around evolutionary outlooks. I am glad you mentioned James Tour - for the sake of brevity I paste this from Wikipedia, a statement that I agree with:

"In Lee Strobel’s book “The Case For Faith” - the following commentary is attributed to Tour: “I build molecules for a living, I can’t begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”

It is ironic that no matter how much science shows us that we cannot understand how life began, evolutionists insist otherwise. Surely this use of science is unhealthy!

I think that the notion of design in Nature may be better understood through the concept of intelligibility of Nature, which has more to do with human intellect making sense of the created order.

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What evidence do you have for this?

Plenty of people have tried, and are trying. I will be writing about some of it this week I think.

Hi Anne!

I’m Richard, nice to meet you. I hardly thought that you were going to respond to my little post to Jon. I’m happy to have you interact with us here and have been impressed, as others have been, with your grace and constraint in the lions den so to speak. I hope others with whom you’ve been debating will follow your example. As well I sympathize with you concerning your son and have already been praying for his faith to return.

You’ve responded twice but I’ll put all my responses here for simplicity’s sake. If I ask a question, please assume that it’s a sincere inquiry and not a snarky response (I say that just based on the tone of some responses to you). Thanks.

[quote=“agauger, post:277, topic:36790”]
Natural law can produce crystals or simple organic compounds, but by itself it cannot produce the information rich molecules such as protein or DNA.[/quote]

Instantly, no, they cannot.

However, laws working on the special properties of matter over long periods of time can produce (create?) some pretty special stuff.

Yes, God is supernatural. What I meant was that maybe God did initiate the physical paradigm we call the universe to evolve from the BB until now. It seems that those whom accuse some ECs of falling to the evils of methodological naturalism assume that we couldn’t have gotten here physically without supernatural interventions.

Thanks for this explanation, I really am here to learn. I do realized that ID scientists use experiments and logic. And there is a range of beliefs in the ID tent, correct? But to use the example that has been discussed in this thread, that is population bottlenecks, isn’t your group aiming to show that an historical Adam and Eve is a scientifically valid belief? Then that has to be inquiry guided by a certain interpretation of particular passages of scripture, I believe.

I echo the concerns of Jon, with the addendum that if God did create the universe to get us here on it’s own, then ID science will continue to make Christianity look bad. I remember doing a paper in a college philosophy course that attempted to prove the existence of God. I used things that I learned in biochemistry, and one of the big ones was the, “conservation of the genetic code”, and that it seemed to have come to us frozen, under infinitesimally small odds to be so conserved. I recently researched it since I now study apologetics and found out that the genetic code evolved. It wasn’t that long ago that I was in school (OK, maybe it was). But you see my point? We’re commanded by Jesus to show God to people through the purity and Christ-likeness of our lives. Yes, science can show unbelievable complexity and organisation and it has helped people like Francis Collins come to belief. But I’m afraid trying to prove that nature couldn’t have done something on it’s own will be in the least fruitless.

I hear what you said to someone else about being convinced of God through nature. I think this is what Paul talks about in Romans 1:20: _For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse._However, that’s not the same as believing in God though science.

I think we’re a pretty reasonable group here. Almost everyone, including myself, sees design in nature. We all stand in awe of God in the meadow, beach, mountains, etc. We just don’t think, again, that trying to show that agency exists through proving that something couldn’t have happened in nature alone is profitable. Any reasonable person can see God in nature and have for millennia.

For myself, I’m actually more in awe of God with the views I have of nature (some views of Genesis did change alongside). I think Richard Dawkins put it best. He said that any God to have created the universe to evolve to this would have to be complex and intelligent, “beyond all understanding”.

Just my 2 cents. :slight_smile:

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Hi Richard,

However, laws working on the special properties of matter over long periods of time can produce (create?) some pretty special stuff.

What do you have in mind? Isn’t this an assumption?

But to use the example that has been discussed in this thread, that is population bottlenecks, isn’t your group aiming to show that an historical Adam and Eve is a scientifically valid belief? Then that has to be inquiry guided by a certain interpretation of particular passages of scripture, I believe.

Fair enough. I started out asking the question whether Francisco Ayala was right about mitochondrial Eve being wrong, having been asked by a philosopher to do so. (Torley knows him.They have had some encounters I believe.) I found Ayala was wrong, but in a peculiar way. The HLA-DRB1 allelic lineages coalesced to just 4, but those 4 extended from about 6 million years to 25 million years; plus there was a sudden explosion of diversity about 450,000 years ago. This is a peculiar tree. I suspect if someone examines other HLA genes they will find the same pattern with four alleles and long branch lengths with sudden diversity. I suspect only the highly polymorphic HLA genes will show this pattern of coalescing to four.

When I saw the data from HLA-DRB1, I knew I had a decision to make. If I publicly said that we might have come from 2 individuals rather than 10,000 I would be branded a creationist. Up until then I had accepted common descent as the most likely explanation for life in general, and had not considered how to think about Adam and Eve. But now it seemed at least a possibility that we came from 2.

Notice that I did not set out on this exploration to prove Adam and Eve. It was rather to find out what was true. But now my curiosity was peaked and I know the importance that many people place on this question, so it deserved asking.

I knew that the chief argument against a first pair was our current genetic diversity, and the supposed size of the population required to explain it. So I thought it would be good to build a model where we could investigate various starting assumptions and see what happened. Fortunately I was introduced to Ola Hössjer, a mathematician and population geneticist. I listed all my variables, thinking it was impossible. But in a few years he returned with a model, which we are now programming. My hope is that the model will be generally useful, since it is not restricted as to starting conditions, and that it will either confirm or disconfirm our hypothesis.

I heard what you said about being afraid that we will make Christianity look ridiculous, or in your words, “bad,” “if God did create the universe to get us here on its own.” That last is the key clause. And if he didn’t? What if he was actively involved, guiding and directing? Wouldn’t you want to know? Don’t you think it would be important?

Any reasonable person can see God in nature and have for millennia.

Obviously not. There are reasonable people on this forum who do not.

Well, we are working on projects that don’t involve proving a negative. That should help.

Thanks for the chat.

Hi Merv

Stripped back, the question you ask is about the motivation to find regularity in the universe. If one considers Newton or Kepler, that motivation was to see (and marvel, and apply practically) God’s regular means of working.

So whether they expressed it that way or not, they were looking for distinctions between God’s regular actions (via the series of secondary efficient causes) and his free contingent actions. They weren’t looking for a distinction between God’s arbitrary actions and Nature’s reliable actions, and it didn’t inhibit their curiosity.

So (according to the piece linked from my linked piece - what the heck, here’s the link) Newton saw the mathematical unpredictability inherent in the three body problem he had uncovered, and was willing to accept the likelihood of free divine action somewhere within that contingency.

Laplace, later, was in contrast ideologically committed to a predictable, closed, system of nature, and so was happy to take the approximations that indicated the stabilty of the solar system as final truth. But he was wrong - providing an example of the reverse of your scenario: the unwillingness to look for a contingent cause behind apparent regularity.

Isn’t the reality that people look for scientific causes because they recognise the hint of a pattern (a kind of design inference!) and then chase it up. Nobody starts looking for the laws behind apparently completely disparte events.

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Hi Richard.

That sentence was intended to demonstrate that observation is always theory laden! Formally, perhaps, contingency is just contingency: there is no way to say with certainty that this post was not created randomly by a lucky electrical storm.

To the groups I mentioned, the distinction is easy, because (to oversimplify) the Epicurean attributes everything ultimately to chance, so even something like an undeniable Resurrection is luck; the Deist being committed to Clockwork Order will assume that even the miracles have lawlike causes (remember all those sandbars explaining walking on water, or generous people sharing loaves and fishes in homeopathic amounts).

I would argue that the theist, believing in a God who is immanent in his good creation, might find it hard to see where “chance” comes into it at all, and will be open both to hidden laws and free acts of God.

In reality, those three groups are not watertight - people can be persuaded by, for example, seeing a miracle and deciding that their Epicurean explanation won’t wash.

In the case of ID, part of the issue is that, whether theists or not, they apply the possibility of final and formal causation - the essence of design - to the “natural” world as well as to human affairs. So they “see” what the Epicurean, who denies the existence of formal and final causes, and the Deist, who is only interested in efficient causes, have excluded ideologically. In that sense, design can’t be proven. Maybe that edges towards answering your #1.

Your #2 (first sentence) confuses me. “Methodological Naturalism” is to explain nature as if there were no God, supposedly to have a better chance of discovering the laws which (ECs will say) God made. It’s hard for me to see how God could explain creation apart from himself.

But in theory, God might be a Deist, I suppose, and put all his design eggs (as per your second sentence) in the origin of the Universe so it ran “on a perpetual motion” (Leibniz). The problem there is theological - the Deist God is not the Yahweh of the Bible. Additionally there are many emoirical indicators that the Universe is not that much a precision clock, unless there are a bunch of hidden laws of which we have no scientific inkling.

If such were the case though, to try and speak for ID as I understand it from the outside, it wouldn’t alter the design inference: formal and final causation are present whether a designed object is made by hand or manufactured by a completely automated algorithmic process.

But specifically:

I’ve never heard an ID person denying the existence of laws: only that laws are not sufficient to account for contingency. They don’t even have to deny the universal applicability of laws. After all, human actions, though not predictable by natural laws, nevertheless never act against them. In fact, it seems to me that those who rule out design do so usually by renaming it as “chance”, which (as in Monod) becomes a force NOT covered by law.

Your last sentence, I think, is a non-sequitur. The possibility, even self-evidence, of design was held by nearly everybody before a couple of centuries ago. Aristotle was not interested in proving Genesis. Granted, my Epicureans would deny on metaphysical principle the creation accounts - but in essence ECs are in agreement with IDists on the fact of creation. Even the Deists might be happy with the core teaching of Genesis 1 - it’s the rest of the Bible, in which God is involved with his world, that they would reject. But the secular man in the street is as comfortable with a God who does stuff as any IDist.

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Hi Ann

Nice to meet you too. I agree with you that God hides in plain sight. The bit you quote from me is really just a question of emphasis (speaking as a Theistic Evolutionist).

I’m not in the least afraid that anything in science could disprove the existence of God. It’s just that I, personally, did not come to the table with any idea of proving God, but as a Christian looking for the best understanding of what he does in creation, and how. My Christianity included the natural theology of Romans 1 or the Psalms - that the heavens declare the glory of God. I even agree that is often the first stage in a robust faith.

But my position is that, once one has that robust faith in the Triune God of the Bible, it’s bound to affect ones theology of nature, which cannot possibly end up the same as a a secular a-theology of nature. That, of course, is why I differ from the discipline of ID both here and at The Hump of the Camel in feeling absolutely free to talk about Jesus, the Bible and all things Christian within my “brief”!

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Denying data is a pretty common way to block up gaps, wouldn’t you say? In this extreme case (where pretty much the only explanation that accepts the data invokes God), the non-divine explanations of the phenomenon (ie millions claim God raised Christ from the tomb) include gullible or dishonest “iron age” witnesses, swoon theories, plots by Constantine and the Nicean Council, or whatever.

Hi again, Vincent.

I will grant the need for language but not the need for art.How do you gauge what the earliest human could or couldn’t do?
Here’s an article you might find interesting about the earliest use of fire.

Human Ancestors Tamed Fire Earlier Than Thought - HISTORY.

John Hawks has long thought that H erectus should be called human. Here he describes his current view:

I see H erectus, Neanderthals and Denisovans as all one species with different morphologies and adaptations, cousins if you will. As to when to place the first ensouled Adam I prefer earlier for the reasons I gave before. I dislike the idea of non-human hominids, co-equal yet lacking souls. Which means the time must be early, at the origin of some group. If you make it 300,000 bp that leaves Neanderthals and Denisovans as intelligent brutes. Plus Neanderthals exhibited signs of culture and religion, plus sophisticated tools. We don’t know much about Denisovans.

2 million? 800,000? 300,000? 70,000? An argument can be made for each of these dates.

Here’s the difficulty. If you are going to preserve monogenism, unless you start early, a large number of human-like unensouled hominids will be running around. Home erectus was wide spread by 1.9 million yr bp in Asia.

I don’t know any atheists who actually deny data, only those who dispute what the data means. Millions claiming that God raised Christ from the tomb, is certainly not evidence that God raised Christ from the tomb, any more than millions believing Mohammed went to heaven on a horse is evidence that Mohammed went to heaven on a horse.

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Would you say that Lenski’s evolution experiment with E. coli was a waste of money or didn’t work?

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