Ann Gauger's latest salvo against Dennis Venema's arguments against an original pair of human beings

If memory serves, there have been studies of intercessory prayer and illness. Those have had mixed results with many pointing to an effect of human contact and interaction. People who had a strong support group of family, friends, and fellow Christians praying for them tended to do better. However, when those same people didn’t know that they were being prayed for the control and test groups did equally well. Again, this is from memory and I may have a few details wrong.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:401, topic:36790”]
The patient of Christian doctor reports resolution of his (angiographically confirmed) anginal chest pain in response to prayer. The non-Christian specialist agrees that the angiogram is now normal. But the only reason the two physicians can agree on the probable explanation of the phenomenon is if the Christian makes a rule of practising methodological naturalism, despite his theism, at work (or because his worldview excludes miracles, which is more like metaphysical naturalism).
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There are also cases where people worsen and/or die even though they are being prayed for. There are others who have the same recovery and no one is praying for them. Obviously, we need a statistical analysis instead of anecdotal evidence in order to approach this question.

The most obvious hurdle for dogs is size. A great dane is not going to be able to mate with a Chihuahua. There is also the problem of humans controlling their breeding.

In nature, there are tons of possible scenarios that can lead to a lack of interbreed, but not necessarily an inability to interbreed. There is a very important distinction between “can interbreed” and “do interbreed”. Perhaps chimps and gorillas could produce offspring, but do they? No. I would strongly suspect that chimps and bonobos are able to interbreed, but they don’t interbreed because the Congo river keeps their populations separated.

Another interesting case is the apple maggot fly. The original population laid their eggs on hawthorn fruit, but today the species lays its eggs on the hawthorn and the domestic apple which flower and fruit at different times. Therefore, you now have two different populations that have different breeding seasons which has resulted in a reduction of interbreeding between the populations.

As to the horse and donkey, their were chromosomal fusions and genomic changes in both branches that resulted in incompatibility. It is interesting to note that the Przewalski horse (i.e. wild horse) and the domestic horse both have the same chromosome count while donkeys have one fewer chromosome pair. However, donkeys and the Przewalski horse are able to have fertile offspring while the horse and donkey are not.

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Guess we are getting of track a bit, but I always looked at those studies as flawed since to pray for physical health as a purposeful goal implies trying to manipulate God, and in a sense makes physical health something idolatrous. If there is interest to discussing this topic, perhaps we should move it to a new thread.

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I agree, that does lead to all sorts of theological rabbit trails. As it relates to this thread, the main point is that you need to use statistics in scientific studies instead of focusing on just a few anecdotal accounts. Even in cases where there is a real drug that really cures people there are still going to be people who spontaneously become better, those that don’t respond to the drug, and those that respond to the placebo.

As I stated in another post a while back, scientific conclusions don’t say “X absolutely is true, and Y is absolutely false”. Rather, scientists conclude that observations are consistent with the hypothesis with X.XX% statistical significance. Scientists strive to make their conclusions tentative and objective, with varying levels of success. :wink:

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@T_aquaticus
And where possible scientists use controls.For much of sequence comparison, i.e. orphan gene identification, coming up with suitable controls will be hard.

As I have said before, I am an experimentalist. I like to see a process happen in real time if possible. Is promoter capture real? What about addition of polyUUU? I bet you could set up a situation in yeast where there is selection for evolution of a missing function and there is untranscribed sequence in the genome that would solve the problem, and then wait to see if it happens and how. In fact there are probably people doing this right now. The same for the polyUUU sequences.

The most improbable part I think is the acquiring of sequence suitable for function, and have it be open reading frame. Until it is under selection, keeping the frame open will be hard, unless it is GC rich, and you have already said most orphans are AT rich.

I would be interested in hearing you and @Jon_Garvey discuss it, since you’re both (ex-)physicians with apparently opposite views on the question. No flame-throwing allowed, Mr. Moderator!

Edit: Sorry. I’m late to the party …

The lack of transcription and translation seems like a good control, and one they are currently using. Nature has already done the experiment for us, so I don’t see why we can’t use the data found in modern genomes.[quote=“agauger, post:409, topic:36790”]
As I have said before, I am an experimentalist. I like to see a process happen in real time if possible. Is promoter capture real? What about addition of polyUUU? I bet you could set up a situation in yeast where there is selection for evolution of a missing function and there is untranscribed sequence in the genome that would solve the problem, and then wait to see if it happens and how. In fact there are probably people doing this right now. The same for the polyUUU sequences.
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I would think that a better experiment would be to have several parallel lines of yeast cells (a la Lenski experiment) and measure the emergence of new RNA molecules using RNA-Seq methodologies. Perhaps there are even immortalized mammalian cell lines that would be amenable to this process.[quote=“agauger, post:409, topic:36790”]
The most improbable part I think is the acquiring of sequence suitable for function, and have it be open reading frame. Until it is under selection, keeping the frame open will be hard, unless it is GC rich, and you have already said most orphans are AT rich.
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I would think someone could write a program and find all of the 300+ bp open reading frames in intergenic regions in the human genome, or whatever cutoff you would like to use. You could also look for close matches to known promoter sequences and polyUUU sequences that are 1 or 2 mutations away from being active in those same regions.

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I thought about mammalian cell lines, but I don’t think you culture enough fast enough to see anything. Do you really think you would be able to detect the emergence of new RNA in real time? I suspect what you would see are changes in gene expression, possibly metabolic work arounds, maybe genes deleted, but nothing novel. Otherwise all those genetic selections and screens over the last 80 years would have yielded something new.

I have no experience with mutation rates in mammalian cell lines, but many would seem to be amenable to lots of passages in parallel as long as you were willing to buy growth media for them. LB is a lot cheaper than DMEM+serum so it may be a bit more difficult with mammalian cells compared to the Lenski experiment.

At the same time, I would strongly suspect that there are more transcription factors in mammalian cells than in smaller fungal genomes, but I could be wrong about that. With a larger library of potential transcription binding sites for mammalian cells, a yeast population might not be the best model, but certainly a more manageable population to propagate.

Another interesting prospect is that there are probably cells with low passage numbers stored somewhere in somebody’s lab. For example, someone like ATCC might have a frozen stock of HeLa from the 70’s stored somewhere, and gene expression in those cells could be compared to cells that have gone through many passages. Probably wouldn’t turn up much, but an interesting thought. Even then, immortalized cancerous cells may not be the best model either due to changes in gene expression and possibly mutation rates. Even in a single human being you can find genetic divergence between cell lineages (i.e. somatic mutations), such as differences between skin cells and t-cells.

A quick google search does not turn up any studies looking at how these cell lines have mutated over the years, but I wouldn’t be surprised if those studies exist.

@T_aquaticus,

This sentence misses the point completely:

“The most obvious hurdle for dogs is size. A great dane is not going to be able to mate with a Chihuahua.” If I wanted to make that point, I would have picked a great dane vs. Chihuahua … or a dachsund…"

But on the flip side, you have me with a stunning exemplar that I never knew about:

This is fabulous!

This is our replacement for that dang Alaskan Rabbit vs. Florida Rabbit scenario !!!

Donkeys, originating out of Africa can represent the Florida Rabbit. The Horse can represent the Alaska Rabbit.

Horses and Donkeys cannot produce fertile offspring. But, per @T_aquaticus, Przewalski horses can breed and produce fertile offspring with either Horses or Donkeys!

This is parallel to a very “stubby” Ring Species!: The terminal ends of the populations cannot breed. And the populations in between provide the genetic continuity to show that they are all related.

If Donkeys have one less chromosome than the other two equines… wouldn’t that pretty much mean God had intended Donkeys to be a different Kind … separate from horses? And yet … here we are showing the genetic pathway of compatibility between these supposedly different kinds!

Knowing why the Przewalski Horse can successfully breed fertile offpsring with the Donkey would be a very good presentation to the YEC audience!

I will reply to this - if JPM wants to move the discussion, fine.

TA, I’m glad you demonstrated my point so well - that Christian and Naturalist worldviews agree only to the extent that the former adapts to naturalism for convenience or out of inconsistency. Let me expand, using my original example. In my career I did something in the order of a quarter of a million face-to-face consultations. Of that, a significant proportion involved coronary artery disease. My uniform experience was that, given certain angiographic criteria, operative intervention was required.

With one notable exception: my friend P, slated for surgery, attended a prayer meeting where he was convinced God had healed him. Angiography confirmed he was certainly healed (as do his annual Christmas cards). That is the phenomenon to be explained.

The Christian physician (me), once appraised of the facts, gave thanks to God. If we may take your reponse as a proxy for my “naturalist consultant”, what you have actually done is to lose the phenomenon, and the human individual, altogether in the word “anecdote”, and to replace it with a statistical fog of what are invariably poorly designed studies, to show (in the end) that there is no explanation. Not least in their poor design is that they are all unconsciously seeking to explain God as a phenomenon within Nature by naturalism - whereas my point on worldviews was that one is as justified in seeking to explain Nature as a phenomenon within God. It is a straight choice about where you ground the reality behind phenomena.

Let’s examine those worldviews. The Christian takes God and his will as the source of all reality. Often God acts, or causes entities in the world, to act, regularly. Sometimes, he chooses to act contingently. Lets label that worldview [God].

The Naturalist believes there is a thing called “Nature” that is the the source of reality. This is usually ill-defined, but seems usually to be considered as a system of universal laws of unknown origin that govern all regular events. Contingent events are attributed to “chance”, but those Naturalists who think a bit more conclude that Laws acting in concert are actually the source of those contingencies - only in ways that are not actually amenable to investigation because too complex, too small-scale, unknown etc. We’ll call that worldview [Nature].

Your first set of studies (I won’t quibble on the details, as it doesn’t affect the point) actually assume that the reality behind the psychology of support, or of trial blinds, is some kind of law based on [Nature], which being still unclear retain the character of chance. But under [God] any regularities are equally explicable by his will, and unexplained contingencies are also governed by the same will. Beneficial human relationships are from God as much as anything else.

The very act of designing a blind-trial of that kind is a giveaway of naturalistic assumptions: it is only necessary because of the universal observation that telling a volitional subject the aims of sociological or medical research will affect the outcomes. Yet there’s no attempt in the studies to involve God, as the volitional agent under test, in the blind. Nor could there be, of course, for he knows all things. Yet he is treated as a blind hypothesis within [Nature], whereas (under theism) Nature is a hypothesis under [God], and God is always the volitional Subject, and never an object. maybe that’s what JPM meant in his post - if so, I agree.

Your second set of studies uses statistical outcomes to negate a “God hypothesis”. Not only does that do nothing to account for the actual phenomenon of my friend’s cure (it’s the equivalent of suggesting that there is no Usain Bolt because statistics show that on average people can’t run fast), but also it can be used in exactly the same way against Nature, seen as the inviolable laws that govern reality, should one choose to make that the hypothesis instead of God.

For whatever it was that cured my friend, it was something, and under [Nature] it was the action of laws. So maybe the prayer had some psychological or other effect, or maybe it was an unrelated coincidence of blood chemistry, or something else. So your trials seek to control for as much of that as possible, and find that some people get better, some get worse. In other words the fixed laws sometimes produce one outcome, and sometimes another, for hidden reasons. If the laws were being treated treated as the hypothesis under test, there is no evidence for them in these trials. All you have is a set of contingent results, which can be ignored altogether if you treat them as a mass with a statistical distribution.

Remember how Sir Robert Maxwell, the father of statistical science, viewed the events making up the statistics:

Would it not be more profound and feasible to determine the general constraints within which the deity must act than to track each event the divine will enacts?

Statistics generalise events to reveal any regularities: all sociology is based on the fact that many of those individual events are free choices.

But there, still sitting having his dinner amidst the inconclusive studies of [Nature], is my friend who once had CAD, but no longer has, who has a perfectly good explanation under [God]. He’s not trying to prove, or disprove anything. He’s just living in a different reality - that works well.

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Let me fix this for you.

The fact that you and your friend go to the doctor proves that the studies of “nature” are far less inconclusive than you imply; you’re perfectly happy relying on “nature” and “materialism” most of the time. All your anecdote demonstrates is that one person has a faith based interpretation of what happened, and one person has a fact based interpretation of what happened. In general terms, we experience better life outcomes when facts determine our decisions rather than faith (there are few exceptions.). We both know that no matter how much faith you have, you’re not going to stop seeking medical care when something is wrong, because you know full well that when people take that route they generally perish miserably.

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Once again, your “fix” completely misses the point, by not grasping the argument. Opposing “faith” to “fact” is the most positivistic statement I’ve heard in a while on a Christian website.

I suggest you look up the two words to see how they’re different. Or at least look at how they’re opposed in Hebrews 11.

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Then that begs the question of why so many people are not healed by prayer, and why non-believers are also healed.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:415, topic:36790”]
The Christian physician (me), once appraised of the facts, gave thanks to God. If we may take your reponse as a proxy for my “naturalist consultant”, what you have actually done is to lose the phenomenon, and the human individual, altogether in the word “anecdote”, and to replace it with a statistical fog of what are invariably poorly designed studies, to show (in the end) that there is no explanation. Not least in their poor design is that they are all unconsciously seeking to explain God as a phenomenon within Nature by naturalism - whereas my point on worldviews was that one is as justified in seeking to explain Nature as a phenomenon within God. It is a straight choice about where you ground the reality behind phenomena.
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It is no different than any drug study where you use statistics to see if those treated with the drug showed a significant improvement over people treated with placebo or the standard of care. That is the gold standard for our entire health system.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:415, topic:36790”]
The Naturalist believes there is a thing called “Nature” that is the the source of reality. This is usually ill-defined, but seems usually to be considered as a system of universal laws of unknown origin that govern all regular events. Contingent events are attributed to “chance”, but those Naturalists who think a bit more conclude that Laws acting in concert are actually the source of those contingencies - only in ways that are not actually amenable to investigation because too complex, too small-scale, unknown etc. We’ll call that worldview [Nature].
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A good analogy is the game of craps. When you roll two dice there is a set of probabilities that describes the outcome, with 7 being the most likely outcome. Any single roll is a chance event that is very unpredictable. However, the outcome of 1 million rolls is very predictable, and the spread of outcomes will look like this:

This is how chance can produce consistent laws when you have as many particles interacting as we have in nature.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:415, topic:36790”]
Your first set of studies (I won’t quibble on the details, as it doesn’t affect the point) actually assume that the reality behind the psychology of support, or of trial blinds, is some kind of law based on [Nature], which being still unclear retain the character of chance. But under [God] any regularities are equally explicable by his will, and unexplained contingencies are also governed by the same will. Beneficial human relationships are from God as much as anything else.
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The question is this. How does one distinguish between God healing people and God not healing people in these studies? You need a null hypothesis, and without one you are simply assuming God is involved with no evidence to support it. That’s the science. If you believe through faith then that’s fine. I’m not here to judge you or ridicule you for believing through faith. However, if you are going to make the claim that God’s influence can be seen through science, then I will expect some science, and that includes a null hypothesis.

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I haven’t made that claim. I was talking about the presuppositions about reality brought to the table, including the table of science. But you (like so many) turn it to a matter of “evidence that God is involved”, whilst presupposing an entity independent of God called “Nature”, for which (if we’re going to talk about scientific evidence) you present no evidence - because you take it as a given, on which you build you evidence, and don’t see any need to provide evidence for Nature itself as a self-contained system.

Once again, that wordview assumption is shown by this: How does one distinguish between God healing people and God not healing people in these studies? The Christian will believe that healing always comes from God, whether working by his regular means of physiology, medical intervention or whatever, or by extraordinary means. We are told by Christ to pray to God for our daily bread - which means that we knowledge that natural causes arethe works of God, and in his hands, not that Christ tells us to expect all our meals to arrive miraculously.

If you believe through faith that there is a non-divine Nature that explains everything in the world that’s fine. However, if you want to claim that science can demonstrate the truth of that metaphysical choice… well, unlike you,I won’t expect some science, because I know it hasn’t the capacity to do that work.

Meanwhile, my friend is still sending me Christmas cards, and [Nature] never gave him an explanation for the facts about his coronary arteries.

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We have plenty of evidence that Nature exists. As to being a “self contained system”, no such assumption is being made.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:420, topic:36790”]
Once again, that wordview assumption is shown by this: How does one distinguish between God healing people and God not healing people in these studies? The Christian will believe that healing always comes from God, whether working by his regular means of physiology, medical intervention or whatever, or by extraordinary means. We are told by Christ to pray to God for our daily bread - which means that we knowledge that natural causes arethe works of God, and in his hands, not that Christ tells us to expect all our meals to arrive miraculously.
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How does one demonstrate that this belief is true, or is that possible?[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:420, topic:36790”]
If you believe through faith that there is a non-divine Nature that explains everything in the world that’s fine.
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I have no such belief, so I don’t see how that applies. If there is evidence for the divine at work in Nature I will accept it.

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We have plenty of evidence that phenomena exist. To attribute them to a system called “Nature” is a worldview presupposition. Nobody in the world had a concept of “Nature” before the Greek philosophers coneptualised it - yet the Babylonians had a complete system of science operating without it.

And until the most recent centuries “nature” (small “n”) was understood as a system of secondary causes both empowered, and providentially controlled, by God, the primary efficient cause of each event. Part of that control, and the most amenable to investigation, was (in post-Aristotelian science) a set of divine laws which gained their ability to conform the behaviour of physical world from its obedient dependance upon God as Creator.

Laplace may have said of God that “he had no need of that hypothesis”, but that covered over his choice to believe, without evidence or explanation, that abstract “laws” could somehow exist and control the world. Or since he was a Deist more often than an atheist, no doubt he attributed the laws and their efficacy to a distant God anyway.

No - “evidence” for exists, or nobody would ever come to belief through nature, and they do, often. Not to be persuaded that evidence is valid is a different matter entirely. If by “evidence” you mean evidence that can be demonstrated by naturalistic methodology, persuasion is as unlikely as becoming an atheist through a miraculous answer to a prayer for unbelief. And if, per impossibile, it did happen, you’d simply have changed your worldview and would no longer hold a Naturalist metaphysics - the only distinction I claimed in the first place on this thread.

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By definition, nature is the phenomena that we observe and the causes of those phenomena.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:422, topic:36790”]
And until the most recent centuries “nature” (small “n”) was understood as a system of secondary causes both empowered, and providentially controlled, by God, the primary efficient cause of each event. Part of that control, and the most amenable to investigation, was (in post-Aristotelian science) a set of divine laws which gained their ability to conform the behaviour of physical world from its obedient dependance upon God as Creator.

Laplace may have said of God that “he had no need of that hypothesis”, but that covered over his choice to believe, without evidence or explanation, that abstract “laws” could somehow exist and control the world. Or since he was a Deist more often than an atheist, no doubt he attributed the laws and their efficacy to a distant God anyway.
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Again, those are opinions and beliefs. I am more interested in what we can demonstrate through investigation and evidence. If your comments are limited to faith based beliefs and opinions then that’s fine.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:422, topic:36790”]
No - “evidence” for exists, or nobody would ever come to belief through nature, and they do, often.
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Then present that evidence.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:422, topic:36790”]
If by “evidence” you mean evidence that can be demonstrated by naturalistic methodology, persuasion is as unlikely as becoming an atheist through a miraculous answer to a prayer for unbelief. And if, per impossibile, it did happen, you’d simply have changed your worldview and would no longer hold a Naturalist metaphysics - the only distinction I claimed in the first place on this thread.
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By evidence, I mean something objective and demonstrable that is independent of the person making the claim. Beliefs and opinions are not independent of a person, so are not evidence. It is the opinions and beliefs that we are trying to find evidence for.

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It is curious and astonishing the lengths atheists will go to ensure that their outlook may appear scientific. In the case that you mention (as I understand it), the person was diagnosed with a medical condition, and the diagnosis was based on evidence that is obtained on a daily basis for many cases. The atheist will try to explain this away, because the second evidence, that of a cure, does “not compute” in his scheme of things. Clearly the atheist will ignore evidence when it contradicts his worldview, and yet, curiously, will insist he is scientific.

The fact of the matter is the healing is unexpected but certain - science just cannot do anything but acknowledge that fact. The person in question states his faith - just why would anyone object to this with such fervour?