Angels vs humanity: differences in creation

[ProDeo (Ed)]

@mitchellmckain

When A&E chose to blame Lucifer for their mistake, God assigned Lucifer the new task of being their adversary.

No new task, he already was the adversary.

[ErikNelson]

@ProDeo

What about Origen? He went one step further than related and said there was only one fall, the one in heaven (or Paradise, or Eden) as described in Gen-3.

you’re absolutely sure? Please provide a citation?

But Origen is known for having had some rather “creative” notions that got him condemned for heresy, so I wouldn’t blindly rely on Origen, his generally excellent scholarship notwithstanding.

[Gerald_Britton]

Well yes, angels are not equivalent to the messages they communicate, that is true. For an an analogy I am not equivalent to the posts I make here.

The “higher power” that transmits messages through his angels is God himself. I hope that is uncontroversial.

[ErikNelson]

@Gerald_Britton

The “higher power” that transmits messages through his angels is God himself. I hope that is uncontroversial.

The Bible distinguishes “The” Angel of YHWH from other angels, yes? God has an angelic league of loyal heavenly beings distinct from Himself, as opposed to the fallen angels who rebelled.

Obviously, God’s loyal angels act on His behalf according to His commands, but they are seemingly distinct from His Angel (as humans have experienced it on earth) as well as Himself directly (in heaven)

[Gerald_Britton]

As I understand it, when we read “the angel of the Lord” it is often a reference to a preincarnate appearance of Jesus. But I am not a theologian! Just a learner.

Fwiw I’m not sure if the value of using the English acronym for the Hebrew name for God. To me it’s an awkward compromise between Hebrew and English and of course doesn’t make sense in other languages, especially those that use other alphabets (Russian, Urdu) or no alphabets (Chinese, Japanese).

Curious to know why you use it?

[ErikNelson]

@Gerald_Britton

As I understand it, when we read “the angel of the Lord” it is often a reference to a preincarnate appearance of Jesus

Saint Justin Martyr thought so

From Greek interlinears, the same Greek expression for “Angel of YHWH” in the LXX is used for Joseph’s experience in Matthew 1:20, “an Angel of the Lord”

I think the Hebrew seems to be more specific, “the” Angel

But the Greek OT & NT do not have the definite article “the” and so everyone translates them into English as “an” Angel of the Lord

At any rate, if the Word was already incarnate in Mary’s womb when “an Angel of the Lord” Joseph was told to accept her as his wife (Matt 1:20)…

and if “Angel of the Lord” = Word…

then the Word was instructing Joseph from Mary’s womb? Or, of course, divine beings can be omnipresent

NB: I prefer “Angel of YHWH” just to be truer to the Hebrew text and to avoid ambiguities like Psalm 110:1, “The LORD said to my Lord”, much clearer when you read “YHWH said to my Adoni”

[Gerald_Britton]

Yhwh and Adonai are completely obscure to me since I don’t speak Hebrew. I think I’ll stick to the languages I know, even if not perfect.

[ManiacalVesalius]

@mitchellmckain

Punishment is for behavior modification so “eternal punishment” is a complete failure by definition.

Calm down - there’s only a wording dispute between us, no “complete failure”. What if I put it this way: you think God is going to eternally torture a being for doing nothing wrong?

I’m also going to have to take a hard disagreement with you on Craig (both on his usefulness - he really helped set me up as a theist - and the fact that he tears his opponents in debates). You don’t really clarify which individualist components of the problem of evil you want solved, so I leave that for you to specify for me to put my on thoughts on it.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@ProDeo

What about Origen? He went one step further than related and said there was only one fall, the one in heaven (or Paradise, or Eden) as described in Gen-3.

No new task, he already was the adversary.

I agree with Origen rather than you on this one. According to the text, Lucifer becoming the adversary was a result of the fall not the other way around.

@ProDeo

So you don’t have children?

The scope of my responsibility is clearly a great deal smaller than that of God. There were no evil people in my world and so it is reasonable that I had children. But I certainly hold God to a higher standard even if you do not.

@ErikNelson

But Origen is known for having had some rather “creative” notions that got him condemned for heresy

tu quoque fallacy. It also well known that Christians have relied on the enormous work of Origen for more than a millenia. A few wrong ideas doesn’t change this any more than it does for thousands of other scholars in science as well as theology.

@ManiacalVesalius

What if I put it this way: you think God is going to eternally torture a being for doing nothing wrong?

Then I would only repeat, that it is clear that you are the one who believes this rather than me since I said nothing like this and have in fact repeatedly denied on this forum that God does any such thing.

@ManiacalVesalius

I leave that for you to specify for me to put my on thoughts on it.

Already have. It is simply clear that you don’t see the same problems as others do, like the person who wrote the OP. That is ok. I certainly have no interest in poking holes in your faith. If WLC is good enough for you then I am perfectly happy to leave you with him. However, you might want to relax a little and accept the fact that there is a fair diversity of thought and belief about things in Christianity.

[ProDeo (Ed)]

Giordano Bruno was burned at a stake for his belief in a round Earth, Luther’s was called a heretical and was excommunicated so I am not so impressed Origen was called a heretic. Having said that his theory of pre-existence is hard to swallow and it took me quite some time to see value in it as a viable theory which might be true, or not.

In a nutshell and in my own words: Once upon a time all God’s creatures lived in harmony in a heavenly place (Eden) until on a bad day Lucifer started to rebel. Origen puts Gen-3 as the (symbolic) story of the satanic rebellion luring many other of God’s creatures into disobedience, As a result (so to say) God created Earth as a (sort of) bootcamp and those who joint the rebellion has to face the human experience and find their way home through Christ, learning obedience.

So one fall, not two.

Scripture:

Eph 1:4 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [KJV]

Both passages (and others) speak of the time before Adam and Eve, a time they did not exist and thus could not have sinned. And yet Jesus was already appointed as the Lamb slain.

I will look up some quotes of Origen you asked for, this post is already a bit long.

[ProDeo (Ed)]

@ErikNelson

you’re absolutely sure? Please provide a citation?

The quotes you asked for.

@Origen

Now what intelligent person will believe that the first and the second and the third day, and the evening and the morning existed without the sun and moon and stars? And that the first day, if we may so call it, was even without a heaven (cf. Gen 1:5-13)? And who is so silly as to believe that God, after the manner of a farmer, “planted a paradise eastward in Eden” (Gen 2:8), and set in it a visible and palpable “tree of life” (Gen 2:9), of such a sort that anyone who tasted its fruit with his bodily teeth would gain life; and again that one could partake of “good and evil” by masticating the fruit taken from the tree of that name? And when God is said to “walk in the paradise in the cool of the day” and Adam to hide himself behind a tree (Gen 3:8), I do not think anyone will doubt that these are figurative expressions which indicate certain mysteries through a semblance of history and not through actual events. [19]

@Origen

These [minds and matter] then are the objects which we must believe were created by God in the beginning, that is, before everything else [Haec ergo sunt, quae in initio, id est ante omnia, deo creata esse aestimandum est]. And it is this truth which we may suppose to be indicated also in that beginning which Moses somewhat obscurely introduces when he says, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth” (Gen 1:1). For it is certain that these words refer not to the “firmament” nor to the “dry land” (cf. Gen 1:6-10) but to that heaven and earth from which the names of the ones we see were afterwards borrowed. [33]

@Origen

We do not understand, however, this man indeed whom Scripture says was made “according to the image of God” [Gen 1:26] to be corporeal. For the form of the body does not contain the image of God, nor is the corporeal man said to be “made,” but “formed,” as is written in the words which follow. For the text says: “And God formed man,” that is fashioned, “from the slime of the earth.” [Gen 2:7].

@Origen

For you must please not think that she [i.e. the church] is called the Bride or the Church only from the time when the Saviour came in flesh: she is so called from the beginning of the human race and from the very foundation of the world—indeed, if I may look for the origin of this high mystery under Paul’s guidance, even “before the foundation of the world” [Eph 1:4].

[ManiacalVesalius]

@mitchellmckain

Then I would only repeat, that it is clear that you are the one who believes this rather than me since I said nothing like this and have in fact repeatedly denied on this forum that God does any such thing.

That’s exactly what you said happens. Satan has no free will, can’t choose between good and evil, but is going to hell forever anyways so that we can be redeemed (or something).

Already have. It is simply clear that you don’t see the same problems as others do, like the person who wrote the OP. That is ok. I certainly have no interest in poking holes in your faith.

You haven’t explained it and I sorely doubt you’d be able to poke holes in anything given your performance to this point. It’s time for this conversation to come to a close.

[ManiacalVesalius]

@ProDeo

Giordano Bruno was burned at a stake for his belief in a round Earth

That’s not true. No one in the Middle Ages thought the Earth was flat. That myth was made up by a populist writer in the early 19th century named Washington Irving in his (fictional) 1828 novel A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus.

[ErikNelson]

@mitchellmckain

tu quoque fallacy. It also well known that Christians have relied on the enormous work of Origen for more than a millenia. A few wrong ideas doesn’t change this any more than it does for thousands of other scholars in science as well as theology.

not unless you’re referring to yourself

I’m not accusing Origen of hypocrisy, but [noting Christians have accused him] of outright error

This is simple – he is [for Christians] a very questionable source, how can Christians derive doctrine from one whom Christendom [partially] anathematized ?

[ErikNelson]

@Gerald_Britton

Yhwh and Adonai are completely obscure to me since I don’t speak Hebrew. I think I’ll stick to the languages I know, even if not perfect.

YHWH = “Yahweh” = Divine Name of God the Father in heaven

Adonai = “Sovereign / Lord” (used of God in heaven)
Adoni = “Sovereign / Lord” (used of human kings on earth)

Psalm 110:1, “Yahweh [Father] said to my Adoni [Son]…”

In the original Hebrew, the Father & Son are clearly distinguished, though intimately associated (as the Son is almost just about given one of the Father’s divine titles)

[ErikNelson]

Seems clear that Origen adopted a hyper-allegorical, almost “Docetist” like, interpretation of Scripture…

which led him to further, extremely abstract, “conclusions” about the spiritual realm…

which other Christians anathematized

Origen might hypothetically be correct on such matters, but only at the expense of everything else we think heaven has told us about what’s happening out there…and if that were to be the case, we could all just start speculating wildly and this whole discussion would quickly become a “Sci Fi / Fantasy writers’ brainstorming session” without any basis for its “conclusions”

[ProDeo (Ed)]

I understand your rejection that’s what I did the first time I heard about it. For me it gave me answers on some essential unanswered questions I have.

[ErikNelson]

@ProDeo

Eph 1:4 - even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world . [KJV]

“Foundation” (Katabole, G2602) is not found in the Greek LXX OT, only in the NT (see below). Dr. Michael Heiser (Stranger Things) seems to link the term to the angelic host spectating at God’s foundation of earth (Job 38:4-7) who “all sang for joy”…

If so, everything from the Fall of Adam & Eve to the Redemption by Christ was foreknown from that event onwards…even though the falling rebellion of the Adversary could not have happened yet, if “all” the angelic sons of God sang for joy?

Job 1 shows the Adversary present amongst the angelic heavenly “sons of god (bene Elohim)”, and Job 4 notes wickedness was found amongst God’s angels in heaven…even as wickedness was found in the Adversary (Ezek 28)…even as the Adversary had engendered wickedness on earth

Plausibly, the Adversary has recruited other heavenly angelic powers to his faction, by similar means to those used on earth to recruit Eve (and through her Adam too)? Other heavenly principalities & powers have already been tempted & succumbed, choosing the doomed side in a “cosmic space war” beyond their (and far beyond human) comprehension?

Heiser also reads that into “let us make man” (Gen 1:26). Insightful connection, but that would mean man, created in “our image”, would image both God and angels…which we “know” is not true? Heiser thinks the entire Trinity is co-omniscient, but we know that is not true, either, some things only the Father knows (Matt 24:36).

Heiser does note that, when it comes to actual creating, the verb becomes singular, “He [God] created man in His [singular] image”

Agreeing with Heiser, God Himself (omniscient) declares everything “good” five verses later (Gen 1:31) on the sixth day. If Heiser is correct, then everything was still “good” into the seventh Divine Day (Gen 2:1)…

perhaps God resting somehow contributed to the Adversary’s fall into rebellion ???

[ErikNelson]

Richard Elliott Friedman’s Bible with Sources Revealed argues that the original J-only strand of the Torah read as follows below, showing that as the Serpent tempted Eve in Eden, so soon the other fallen angelic “sons of the gods (bene elohim)” tempted her daughters. Thus, logically, the Adversary’s fall into rebellions happened after the joyous foundation of earth (Job 38:7 = Gen 1:26), on the 6th Divine Day all of which was still “good” (Gen 1:31), somewhere between the 7th Divine Day of God’s Rest (Gen 2:1-3) and the Serpent in Eden (Gen 3), and soon grew to include numerous other heavenly angelic “sons of the gods (bene elohim)” recruited to the Adversary’s faction, even as the Adversary had recruited Eve on earth to his faction – all by promoting increasing “wickedness” on earth which somehow serves the Adversary’s interests in his “heavenly space war” against the forces of YHWH and His loyal heavenly angels:

Adam & Eve (Gen 2:4+)
Cain & Abel (Gen 4:1+)
Antediluvian Patriarchs: Enoch, Irad, Mehujael, Methusael, Lamech (Gen 4:15+)
Lamech to Noah to Nephilim (Gen 4:19 - Gen 6):

19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who instructed all who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.

23 Lamech said to his wives,

“Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.
24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times…”

[…Lamech…] he had a son. 29 He named him Noah saying, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground YHWH has cursed."

At that time people began to call upon the name of YHWH.

6:1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of the gods saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then YHWH said, “My Spirit will not abide in man forever, for in his going astray he is flesh; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of the gods went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 YHWH saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

[ProDeo (Ed)]

@ErikNelson

If so, everything from the Fall of Adam & Eve to the Redemption by Christ was foreknown from that event onwards…even though the falling rebellion of the Adversary could not have happened yet, if “all” the angelic sons of God sang for joy?

Good point. OTOH, 1 John 3:8 - Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. Or John 8:44. Implying, before Gen 1:1

On Job 4, note that Eliphaz was reprimanded by God (42:7-9) so I am not sure if we can take his words as truth.

@ErikNelson

perhaps God resting somehow contributed to the Adversary’s fall into rebellion ???

Indeed, who can tell?

Like I said Job 38:4-7 is a good point, I will try to find if Origen said something about that.

Another observation would be that (as far as I know) God never made it crystal clear why He created us except for His glory and good pleasure. The satanic rebellion following Origen’s theory has a clear purpose, win back those who fell through Christ.

In your picture you also quoted 1 Pet 1:20 and likewise Eph 1:4 speak of Jesus before the creation story. It strikes me as odd that Jesus was already appointed as the Lamb slain and Saviour while no sin had been committed, not even by Lucifer.