You mean the scenario that has water on the eastern side of the continental divide flowing west instead of east (water does flow down hill). Pretty much another ad-hoc justification.
You mean the scenario that posits (AKA hand wave) a uplift of 1,000’s of feet with no mention of how that might happen without generating enough heat to melt the earth’s crust?
Speaking of hard to refute scenario. Have you ever heard of the Nile River canyon? Deeper than the Grand Canyon, but already filled with silt.
Thanks for the engagement, and the note of the one 1950s scholar who held a non-existent view v. 2. I’ll take a look. IMO it’s still telling that there’s one and it never caught on in the gild.
You take a concordist reading as making sense, but I guess I’d need to see evidence of this (just as I would have to produce reasons for a non-concordist reading). You say it’s based on the close meanings of words…but how so? (I teach Hebrew for a living and have no idea where you’d go from here.) But then you move on to discuss genre, which is quite a different thing than the meaning of individual words. You call the text “history,” but why? (And what does “history” mean in this case?) You also seem to assume the only alternative is “myth,” but why? These genre questions are pivotal in the discussion.
Your comparison to Isaiah is a bit faulty. Isaiah is prophecy–the one genre I’ve already conceded may have more hidden meaning, clarified only by progressive revelation. Even so, many pre-NT Jews did read Isaiah messianically, as witnessed in Second Temple literature.
This I agree with, though I’m not sure which interpretations you’re referring to.
(FWIW, I earlier referenced my recent book on what I consider sound theological readings of the text, which can be appreciated beyond the issues we’re discussing here. But it demonstrates I’m not beholden to “old hand-me-down interpretations.”)
Hi. For my OEC friends I have a question. Do yall think were in the seventh day? I have a topic on that and I have a bunch of questions. Please help answer them if you can!
I’m not a typical OEC. Answering your question might be based on what the question itself assumes (e.g., whether we should be mapping the creation days on to time/space/history). I see the purpose of the 7th as largely, if not wholly, symbolic. First, it symbolizes God’s “rest” in his temple/creation, which means he’s now ruling over his sacred space of creation. In that sense, I suppose one could see us in the 7th day since God continues to rule. But Hebrews 3-4 goes another direction, think of God’s sabbath rest as something eschatological–something the creation is moving toward. So, in that sense, the 7th day is still future. Thus, I don’t see the Bible giving a consistent answer to this question (partly b/c the Bible isn’t asking this question explicitly).
That’s what you think God told us through his word. It’s an interpretation, not an objective fact. I don’t think God told us the age of the earth through his word.
Of course. That is what it always comes down to. My starting assumptions are:
We can learn true things about the world and its history with the tools of science.
The truth God reveals about himself and his actions in the Bible cannot conflict with the truth God reveals about himself and his action in the world he created if we are interpreting both well.
God intends to communicate theological truth about his character, his desire for relationship with humans, and his call for humanity to join him in his mission in the world through his revelation in Scripture. God does not intend to teach scientific facts.
I do not accept the starting assumption that you or anyone else’s “plain meaning” interpretation of a Bible verse here and there is the same thing as “God’s truth” or that whether or not I believe your interpretation is indeed a fact is some kind of litmus test of my relationship with God or the fruit of the Spirit in my life.
Whatever terminology you prefer will do. The “Little Grand Canyon” of the Toutle River were only a few months old when the canyon was formed–and the walls did not slump down into the river.
The flood of Noah’s time was not always raging in any scenario that I am familiar with. The flood was different at different times and in different places. Most of the landscape formation took place in the receding stage of the flood. See Michael Oard, *Flood by Design.
Never heard of that one, so doesn’t sound like one that needs to be justified.
“Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth.” (Heb. 1:10)
The sun, moon, and stars were created after the firm “foundation of the earth” was laid. (Gen. 1:9-18)
“He established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter, forever and ever.” (Ps. 104:5)
“The world is firmly established, it will not be moved.” (Ps. 93:1 & 1 Chron. 16:30)
“For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and he set the world on them.” (I Sam. 2:8)
“It is I who have firmly set its pillars.” (Ps. 75:3)
“Who stretched out the heavens…and established the world.” (Jer. 10:12)
The Bible never depicts the earth as moving, just “shaken,” as in an “earthquake”:
“The earth quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling.”
“The earth quakes, the heavens tremble.” (Joel 2:10)
“I shall make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place.” (Isa. 13:13)
“There was a great earthquake…and the stars of the sky fell…as if shaken from a tree.” (Rev. 6:12,13)
Geocentrists like Dr. Bouw of the Society of Biblical Astronomy wonder how their fellow Bible believers can ignore such plain language depicting the earth’s immobility and the daily (and seasonal) movement of the sun and stars, especially when the text declares that God is doing the moving (and able to halt the motion) of the sun and stars. Does the Bible depict God “commanding” and “leading forth” things that don’t really move? That doesn’t sound like a demonstration of God’s “might,” instead it sounds like mighty deceptive language for God to have “inspired.” That’s kind of like telling people that once they enter their car and step on the gas, " God leads forth the trees which speed by on the roadside…Because of the greatness of Hit; might and the strength of His power not one is missing!" ( cf. Isaiah 40:26). Therefore, geocentrists argue: “How deceptive of God to speak in such a manner unless He meant what he said.” To ignore such plain verses of Scripture is to “ignore God!”
Of course, young-earth creationists say that to “ignore” the literal truth of Genesis and “creation in six days” is also to “ignore God!”
(I think the Society of Biblical Astronomy has been renamed to Association for Biblical Astronomy.)
Everything is being held together by Christ. Walk by faith and not by sight. Knowing that the Lord is in control of the earth and the foundations is something I do not worry about. If the earth was any closer to the Sun, we would burn up. The Lord has created everything for His purposes and Glory.
Hebrews 1:10
His power and upholding literally carrying all things by the word of His power. He’s the Creator and He is the sustainer. He created all things by just speaking everything into existence. This text tells us that by the word of His power He is carrying all the epics and segments of history along. His word is carrying and sustaining all things according to His purpose and will. That’s why in Colossians 1:17 it says of the Lord is the one who is holding all things together. Scientists tell us that the atom should just blow apart because of the elements involved. The scientists called it glue, invisible glue, spiritual glue, that holds the atom together because they don’t know what’s holding it together. It should just blow apart. What Colossians 1:17 tells us Jesus is holding it together by the word of His power. He’s causing history to travel along by the word of His power. He’s carrying all of the universe along by the word of His power. So He has created all things and sustains all things. So we have He is the Projection of the glory of God. He is in His person and substance He is the exact image of God. And in His power He carries all things by the word of His power.
Pastor Bill Klein
I’m confused. That scenario comes from the link you provided to " A receding Flood scenario for the origin of the Grand Canyon". You didn’t read the article?
Hmm. Here’s the quote: “Mike Oard has listed five objections against the BDT and suggested the possibility that it was carved from west to east as the waters of Noah’s Flood receded to the west.”
The article does NOT say the water flowed from west to east, but that like the Niagara Falls gorge and others, perhaps it was carved out the opposite direction from the flow of the water.
Why would he do that? He would find the best agricultural land that was dried out, probably higher ground, and farm that. Much of the salt would have washed away in rains after the flood.
The rains didn’t stop after the flood? btw, In the bad old days when you wanted to starve your enemies you would put salt in their fields to ruin them for agriculture.
My bad. I described the scenario incorrectly. Mike has the water flowing generally from the east to the west. However, if you look at his map some of the area he included is on the east side of the continental divide. Water on the east side of the divide can only flow east.
My approval has nothing to do with it, as you well know. I just want to know what you think of these Bible passages that teach a fixed earth. It’s your choice to either address the issue or run away.
Do you have any idea what is required for land to support plant life? Soil contains a myriad of life forms. Bacteria that fix nitrogen, fungi, earth worms, nematodes, and many others. After a year under salt water (remember the flood covered the highest mountains) all of these life forms would be dead. It takes time for the land to recover and the animals are going to get very hungry before they do.
Where do the seeds come from to replace the plant life?
What do plant eaters eat until plant life returns?
What do the meat eaters eat until their prey can reproduce?
Where do the fresh water plant and animal life come from?
Genesis 9:1
After the flood
And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Genesis 9:2
And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Genesis 9:3
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Well as we can see God had a plan.