An important perspective on race

Yeah, let’s not get into this…re: sounding/acting like your race that i mentioned towards the beginning of the thread. It has its own roots in the systemic racism that has gotten everyone where they are today. “I’m a good guesser” is not ever something I like to hear when someone is trying to validate my ethnicity with me. It’s none of their business how I was brought up, educated, or am choosing to present myself in that moment (ie code switching).

While the usage of AAVE or other dialects that may lend themselves to thinking someone might be a certain race, let’s not get into whether or not this is a good practice.

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I didn’t not judge it as good or bad; I simply noted that the capabilities exist to tell if a person is very likely African-American by listening to the voice.

Jay, I read your opening post.

I can’t agree that race is a cultural construct.

If it were a cultural construct, people would not be able to usually tell a person’s race by simply seeing the person’s picture.

It is biological.

It is not racist to recognize the fact that there are physically differences in the races that can be observed.

Of course, there are people of mixed race which are more difficult to assess. CNN anchor Fredericka Whitfield is a possible example.

Let’s just say that that humans reproduce, and different populations often intermarry.

Doesn’t that sound nicer? Or would you really say that your parents mated and dropped a bull calf?

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There is nothing shameful about humans breeding.

And why would you call @gregoreite a bovine or other non-human species designated with the term “calf?”

Those “capabilities” are socialized. Because race is a cultural construct you learn as part of your socialization. The way people talk does not flow from any genetic reality, it flows from their identification with a particular speech community.

Look, we aren’t going to argue about this ad nauseum on this thread and have it descend into a bunch of posts where Vance tells the world how it is and refuses to learn from people who know better. It’s been discussed elsewhere, if you are interested:

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Well, Christy, if you think race is a cultural construct not rooted in genetics, I think you are taking a politically “woke” position contrary to observable science.

If we can look at a picture of a person with no information about their culture and correctly determine with a high likelihood of accuracy whether the person is black, white, or Asian, then your position is incorrect.

I understand you want to be sensitive and accepting. We can do that without denying basic facts.

And denying the physical differences in the appearances of races is simply closing your eyes to reality.

All races have equal standing before our creator, and all are loved by God. We don’t have to all be the same to have value.

You do understand, I hope, that the differences in appearances of the races is a key driver in racial profiling, an abhorrent practice, don’t you? If race is only a cultural construct, then racial profiling based on a person’s looks is impossible. And that is not the case.

Okay, you have stated your opinion. If you repeat any more about it, I’m deleting it. You have a bad habit of just using post after post to repeat the same thing. I’m letting you know that is not going to happen on this thread.

I don’t believe you understand what a cultural construct is. I don’t think there is any point at all in explaining it to you because you have no history of ever changing your mind about anything, even when you are obviously not informed. The only reason you can “look at a picture” and “correctly determine” a racial category is because those racial categories and the rules about who “correctly” fits in them have been socially constructed and you are socialized to have knowledge of them. There is no such thing as being “genetically” white or black. Those categories only have meaning with reference to a cultural context and categories people have created for social reasons. I’m not going to say any more about this to you.

Insisting race is a genetic reality goes against the position of BioLogos and has social and ethical consequences. We don’t have to let you use our forum as a platform for you to repeatedly defend views that go against the mission of the organization.

I have six people in my own extended family who are the result of bi-racial marriages. I am aware of some of the fears that their parents had about family reactions prior to their marriages. My response is to cheer them on.

I thought quite a lot about the appropriate word to use and probably should have gone with “mate”. “Inter-marry” doesn’t really have relevance to progeny. The term “breed” may be tasteless to people in some sub-cultures but not in others. For example, the BBC has a television series called “Breeders” which is described as: “A comedic look at the trials and tribulations of parenthood.” See the following for reference:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8129450/

I assume this threat is aimed at me. Yes, I do understand what a cultural construct is. At university I studied both physical and social anthropology, as well as sociology and social policy. In the course of this thread you have repeatedly tried to maintain that race is a cultural construct. Some others who have posted agree with you.

Now let’s set this thread within the world around us. Since the death of George Floyd there have been mass demonstrations in many countries around the world, all chanting the same: “Black lives matter”. The reason for this is that other countries have people of color who have been discriminated against and treated barbarically because they are black. In other countries, “black” does not mean necessarily people of African ancestry; it may be Pakistani or Indian people, or indigenous people like the Australian Aborigines. Anger is seething around the world about their treatment. The cops involved in this discrimination do not pull people up on the street and ask them about which cultural construct they want to run with, before deciding whether to tell them to have a good day or body-slam them to the bitumen.

God in his wisdom has made people of different races. It is only by embracing these differences in a genuine way that we experience his general providence - in most situations, a wider and healthier gene pool. When AM humans exited Africa they probably did so in small bands which would have led to such inbreeding that congenital disease would have wiped them out. Fortunately there were Neanderthals to mate with. In the area of modern China, we have in the past Denisovans, and an as yet unknown other gene type. In fact, through evolution God has provided a fail-safe mechanism for the survival of human beings. We cannot eliminate racism by defining it away as a “social construct”. We can only eliminate racism by embracing people of other races than our own and thereby experience God’s providence.

Nope. It was clearly directed to Vance, who has used up his moderator grace account on other threads. :slight_smile:

Well Mitchell, you seemed quite definite about it to begin with, but towards the end of your reply you began to allow the possibility of genetic sources for white skin. You may be right in your initial assertion, but to be convinced I would have to see the locations and numbers.

I think about 2 years ago there were 1.3 million refugees in Germany from the Middle East and Africa. I wonder what conclusion an anthropologist will come to when they see all those Middle Eastern graves (when they eventually die).

Here are some quotes and links to debate your “not possible” assertion:

From Mark Miller in Ancient Origins February 21 2015: “A study of ancient DNA by other researchers showed a mutation that may have resulted in red hair and light skin among Neanderthals, according to the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History. An article on the Smithsonian’s website says two Neanderthals, one from Spain and one from Italty, had a mutation in a gene controlling skin and hair color. “The mutation changes an amino acid, making the resulting protein less efficient. Modern humans have other MCR1 variants that are also less active, resulting in red hair and pale skin. The less active Neanderthal mutation probably also resulted in red hair and pale skin, as in modern humans.”

Here’s another by April Holloway in the same source:

“Now two new studies suggest that, taken collectively, about 20 percent of Neanderthal DNA still lives on in modern humans, influencing the skin, hair, and diseases that people have today.”

For more from that article, see here:

People have different cultures and ethnicities, and yes, I’m happy to affirm this diversity is part of God’s plan. But it’s people who have categorized them into races and then developed prejudices that are enforced by their social structures. I fully agree there are differences between people groups, and that we need to embrace and celebrate and benefit from diversity.

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Lol good one. Im not very fond of depicting Buddha at the same place as Jesus. Although thats a very good one!!

Cody, I want to respond to one of your posts about Creation by looking at one of your Biblical quotes, namely, 1 Corinthians 11:8. Of course, this is only a single verse and it is necessary to re-establish the context. In the ancient Church at Corinth, worship was not quite the same as worship in many mainstream churches today. Especially at Corinth, people seem to have responded spontaneously to the leading of the Holy Spirit. In fulfilment of the prophet Joel, both men and women prophesied or led the congregation in prayer. Not only did worship often involve chaos, but some women were doing this in a way that was sexually immodest. In doing this they were embarrassing their husbands. But before I say more on that, let me tell you a story.

When I was at uni many years ago, we were in the height of the flower power generation. One of my female friends decided to “burn her bra” in tune with the ideology of the day. As she was a big breasted woman and it was summer, this was very obvious. One day a feminist lecturer came through and after her guest lecture invited the female students to afternoon tea. During that time she warned my friend she lived in a male dominated society and ran the risk of becoming a sexual object. When she had completed her PhD. and converted that to a book, did she want men coming away from her book launch saying, “Great book” or “Great boobs.” My friend took the hint, restored the bra, and went on to a life of academic success.

I think that what this feminist lecturer said to my friend was exactly what Paul was saying to some women at Corinth. To understand it we have to realize that in that ancient society, a woman’s uncovered hair was thought to be sexually provocative. This is the reason Muslim women cover their hair nowadays, and even in the Eastern churches, Christian women still cover their hair when in church.

Paul came from Antioch, which was a cosmopolitan center of learning that rivalled Alexandria in Egypt. He knew that one mark of a skilled orator was the use of a play on words. He could do this in the common Greek because at that time the first metaphorical meaning of the Greek word for head, kephale, was “source”, like the source of a river. In the Creation story, Eve is made from Adam’s rib, so man is the “head” or source of woman, but in Christ this is not one-sided, because just as woman gives birth, woman is the source of man. (1 Corinthians 11:11-12). So a woman should not dishonor her head (source = the man), by uncovering her head (literal). While we may find this logic bizarre, Paul’s hearers would probably clap such brilliant exegesis.

If Acts is to be believed, Paul always went to the Jews first, then the Gentiles. So the early church was composed of Jewish and Gentile Christians. Now Paul’s policy was to become a Jew to the Jews, a Gentile to the Gentiles, … all things to all people. In other words, to step in and meet people where they were at. In view of this, should we take an element of his “brilliant exegesis”, which was intended to instruct people to dress appropriately, and take it as an indication that we should see in it a literal account of Creation? In the history of the Christian Church, we have a good indication that we should not do this. In the book of Joshua, we have an account of the Sun being made to stand still; an account that was used to assert that the Sun revolved around the Earth. We all know where that approach ended.

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That is incorrect. Lighter pigmentation was strongly selected for in populations away from the equator.

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Well, that’s the hypothesis; but it has a few problems.

  1. If the presence of dark-skinned people in Europe can be verified to have taken place in the relatively recent Mesolithic era, a transition by natural selection would have little chance to occur.

  2. Meanwhile, the world’s longest continuous culture, the Australia Aborigines, having entered Australia between 60,000 and 40,000 years ago, and having traveled to the freezing cold part of Australia known as Tasmania, persisted with brown skin.

It’s not a hypothesis: it’s a conclusion. The conclusion is based on the presence of clear signals of strong positive selection in genetic variation data, with independent signals around each of numerous genes known to be related to lighter pigmentation.

Most of Australia receives a high level of UV in sunlight, which is the key factor. See this map, for example; the top shows UVB radiation levels around the world:


(from this paper.) As for Tasmania, just because there is a selection pressure, that doesn’t mean the necessary mutations will occur in a small population to respond to the pressure.