why is it different? If a Christian today prays for a blind man to see, and he sees, what is the difference between that and what Jesus did. In both cases it is God healing because of Jesus.
Well known, HeyMike! Thanks for the reminder.
Forgive me, but this is not a simple question and consequently, I canât give a simple answer.
When Jesus walked this earth the understanding of both God and miracles was different. To a greater or lesser extent there was a belief in the supernatural so miracles were just part of life. It was all less defined than now. The spiritual realm and the physical realm were not delineated. There was not a single God, although Judaism was supposedly monotheistic. Even so there were various other spiritual beings from demons to angels with their own powers. Anything that could not be understood physically was assigned to the spiritual
Therefore Jesus having a spiritual aspect was nothing unusual. They had seen it before. Jesus had to demonstrate a unique position. It was his linking of forgiveness with healing that stood him apart. Only God could forgive sins.
So the dynamics of miracles was not directed at the existence of God, but the relationship Jesus had with the God they all knew existed.
Add to this the fact that we are relying on scripture to tell us what happened. And scripture also assumes the existence of God.
But, today God is not assumed to exist. We have changed our understanding of the world. Everything is catalogued, measured, and explained. The supernatural is denied. God is for the faithful. But, if God could be proven it would change everything.It would prove the existence of the spiritual realm and all the baggage that brings with it.(Ghosts, demons, miracles, supernatural/superhuman powers and so on)
So how people view or interpret a miracle has changed.
In Biblbical times a miracle was accepted as possible, but the source was more important. What mattered was who caused it rather than its exisence.
Today the suoernatural is denied so a miracle shouldnât be possible.You will see people here deny that anthing is beyond explanation by science, and if not, it is only becaue we havenât sussed it. Magic is deception. Magicians are deceivers and liars. Miracles are classed the same, and the perpertrators must be cheating somehowâŚ
And the Bible? Is looked at with suspicion. Miracles are second hand reports to be believed by the faithful and explained away by science. Moses was using the same âMagicâ as the Egyptians when turning a stick into a snake. It wasnât God because God does not exist. SO miracles become part of faith instead of being accepted as normal. And Jesus is just part of the Bible.
So, I am a Christian, I have faith. I believe in God. I have witnessed and performed miracles. I do not require the scientific proofs and explanations. Miracles are just part of Life (with God). But, I cannot prove to a skeptic the existence of miracles. And my claims are subject to the same rationale of belief as the BibleâŚ
It is not that the nature of miracles has changed. it is the perception of them.
It is the same dynamic as when Jesus was in front of Herod. If He had performed then Herod would have let Him go. The miracle would have been a proof of who Jesus was. A public miiracle today becomes proof of the existence of the spiritual. Like banned substences, it has become underground. The existence of God is the most dangerous concept to modern society because it would mean that we were not the ultimate power. (Aliens are viewed in a similar light) And the idea that someone/something could have such power as to heal or break the laws of nature is frightening.
The consequence of all this is the way miracles have come to be perceived by Christians (et al) You get all this discussion about whether the participants have enough faith, or whether it fits with Godâs plans, or any number of excuses for it not happening (or happening).
It would be so much simpler if I could just lay hands on someone and they were healed. But if that became common knowledge I become a celebrity, a healer, a freak. If you think Jesus was mobbed, a modern-day version would be hounded to death. Yet, God would still be denied. And the world would strive to justify the existence of miraculous powers without Him. It would serve no benefit to God for a celebrity healer to exist. (as can be proven by some urban legends of such people existing)
So, yes, miracles are in private. In specific circumstances, and almost impossible to predict (or perform)
I hope this rambling has helped.
Richard
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By who?
By who?
By who?
Believers believe, nonbelievers donât. The billions of people throughout history who were not Christians never believed the Bible.
That the world is more skeptical would seemingly be a good reason for more public miracles, not less.
You have zero evidence for this. In fact, many Jews could attribute Jesusâs miracles to the devil. Since the climate is much more skeptical today as you say this cannot be done. Jesus would be taken as who he is. Your own views are working against themselves.
Private secret supernatural occurrences only visible by a very few in general is cult behavior.
If God wants followers he should and would make himself known in the world. Whether that is the case or not is a different issue.
Vinnie
Clearly you have no idea what i am talking about.
It has been said before and I will say it again. God is a God of faith and must remain so.If God was ever proved to exist or appeared in the Sky like the moon the whole dynamic of the world would change.
As long as God is a God of faith He can be ignored. A visible God cannot be ignored.
If God is fully visible/proven, He has two basic choices
- Rule with all the power and subsequent consequences
- Do nothing and be considered benign, and therefore ignored
As long as God wants us to choose Him rather than be forced to submit He must remain a God of faith and invisible to those who neither want or seek Him.
And as for the restâŚ
what world are you living in?
Gone are the days when religion was a matter of course or even a prerequisite of employment. The church no longer rules or holds sway. Religion is down to the individual.(Except in certain countries who try and impose it) and that would appear to be what God wants.
The comparison was between Biblical Israel and the modern world. Between the miracles of Jesus and modern day miracles.
God could make Himself visible. The fact that he doesnât demonstrates what I have shown.
We can ignore Him if we so wish. And, there is no dire consequences despite what the church would like us to think. Otherwise it would still be coercion.
Richard
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He would be ignored by some but others would take it upon themselves to speak for God. We see this happen with human monarchs, especially the popular ones. People tend to take God/monarch not preventing them as approval. This happens even with an invisible God but with a visible God I think this would get worse.
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Or confined to a research facility to determine how it worked.
Is it coercion to warn people on a ship that it is sinking and theyâd better get to a lifeboat?
Or for a doctor to say that there is an epidemic and tell people they should stay home?
Or for a fireman to tell people the downstairs is totally engulfed in flames so they have to come out an upstairs window?
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I appreciate reading this. I think trust in science and reason goes way too far. It is nakedly about lust for power. If only science was the skeleton key for all of reality but it isnât. And neither is it logic. Science at least is significantly important, but not when misused and stretched too far. There is another dimension which must be accounted for.
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Yawn!
If a ship is sinking then the end result is clear. Barring a miracle or maybe an Olympic swimmer, you will die. There is no choice. You get on a lifeboat. Anything else would be stupid. The coercion is still choose the lifeboat or die.
So you are claiming that the end result of this life is clear. IOW if you are not a Christian you will die.
If that is true then it is like having a gun pointed at your head. Which, in most peopleâs view is coercion. Say yes or die.
Therefore, if God is claiming a free choice, there can be no gun. There can be do dire consequence, there can be no automatic Hell or suffering. A free choice means no consequence.
What part of this do you not understand?
Richard
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Folks, this thread isnât about free will or eternal punishment. If youâd like to discuss either or both feel free to Private Message each other or start a thread with a clear science connection. Otherwise, please can we stay on-topic? Cheers.
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A lot of good that would do
When dealing with the supernatural it would seem a little pointless to measure it in terms of the natural.
The world is obsessed with super-humanity . Marvel has made a killing out of it as has the film industry. The point is that if it is genuine then the power is transient dependant on God Himself. I have healed but I am not a healer. I have performed miracles but I am not a miracle worker. The power and the Gory belong to God which puts it out of reach of science.
A witness reports what they think they saw and interprets it. Chances are they believe what they say. The result is you either accept it as genuine or dismiss it as fallacy. Itâs not even a case of whether they are considered genuine or not. The exceptional is just that. And has to be taken on the same level. In isolation of any other example of truth or reliability.
Richard
If warning someone that the ship they are on is sinking constitutes coercion â well, thatâs a really strange definition of coercion.
If this is true, then thereâs no such thing as salvation because thereâs nothing to be saved from. Indeed if this is true then Jesus gave a totally pointless prayer when He said to pray that we be delivered from the evil one (or even from evil).
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