I don’t believe in any of that angels breeding with human stuff. I think that story (in Genesis 6) is about the descendants of Adam and Eve – giants among men (“men of renown” as it says) in the sense of being the leaders in human civilization. In the vast majority of the Old Testament the “sons of God” refer to God’s chosen people not angels. The daughters of men simply refer to the fact that the earth was already filled with all the homo sapiens which Cain was afraid would kill him if he wandered about. The angels are spiritual beings not biological creatures and do not have sexual reproduction (Matthew 22:30).
I certainly don’t believe evil and the flood was about some kind of genetic purity or demons. There is nothing in the Bible to support such a thing. Over and over, it says that the problem is “the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.” There is no mention of demons anywhere.
Where I might agree with you is that all this UFO stuff is spiritual rather than anything to do with aliens. The vast distances between stars and the energy cost of traveling between them is far too great to make it likely that such stuff has anything to do with alien visitation.
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
22
Can you put a number on likely? They make it impossible - impossible as in the Flood and God as in Christ actually being a genocidal incompetent - even to communicate.
[NB: For ease, throughout this post, ‘alien’ and ‘extraterrestrial’ life refers to non-earth based lifeforms of at least human advancement (biology, technology, etc.)].
Personally, I think that much of the search for intelligent extraterrestrial life is primarily a human quest for meaning and self-understanding. An expression of two fundamental (and ancient) human questions ‘Who are we?’ and ‘What is our place in the created order?’ Incidentally, these two questions underpin much of Science Fiction, which in turn, I believe, massively colours the popular (though not necessarily scientific) view of alien life.
Whilst I’ve not done academic research on the topic (Ie. I am not a trained exo-biologist), the Fermi Paradox* still appears to be the strongest challenge to the existence of advanced alien life. Aliens are either indifferent to our existence, actively avoiding us, unable to make contact, too far to reach/observe/care about us, or simply don’t exist. In short, it appears that aliens, on a functional level do not exist.
As a result, until we (if we ever) have conclusive evidence to the contrary, the existence of extraterrestrial life will remain (to my mind) in a similar category to belief in a creator-God - a scientifically plausible, currently unprovable, article of faith.
(At this point, you may wish to hail me with rotten tomatoes but I’d encourage you to hold on to them a little longer. )
Again, my personal view, is that the existence of alien life is the single greatest challenge to traditional orthodoxy. I believe that it is so challenging to such a range of classical doctrines that it makes the Problem of Natural Evil look like a typo in the footnotes.
Here are three examples in no particular order.
Christianity’s Uniqueness - Imagine we encounter a super-advanced race who a religious. However, those religious systems are completely alien (be-dum-tsk) to Christianity or indeed any human religion or spirituality. What are we to make of this? Are they worshippers of false religion in need of evangelising? Are they followers of Yahweh under a different name and through a different means? In which case, can humans follow said alien religion and be saved? What if they are such radical materialistic atheists that they make Richard Dawkins look like the Pope?
Sin - Biblically, sin is a human problem, affecting human life on this planet. Are aliens sinners in need of salvation? If not, what should we make of said aliens if they turn out to have a cultural practice of murder or lying?
The Image of God - What does it mean to be made in the image of God if aliens exist? Are they also made in the image of God or not? If yes, what if they appear radically different to humans? Eg. sentient tree-like beings; a gas-based telepathic lifeform, or a self-aware eusocial insectoid colony? I’ll concede that these examples are the extremes of science fiction, but then so are every method of said aliens become advanced enough to reach and/or meaningfully make contact with us.
I appreciate that everything I have said here is probably wildly unpopular. I don’t expect others to take up similar positions, or even agree with me. However, that’s the way I see the lay of the land at present.
TLDR: My personal position is that:
Currently, the search for alien life is more about us than it is about them
Based on the Fermi Paradox, aliens functionally do not exist. As such, belief in the existence of alien life is, currently, a scientifically plausible, currently unprovable, article of faith.
The existence of alien life is the single biggest challenge to historic Christian orthodoxy
You may now throw your rotten tomatoes.
*Simply the Fermi Paradox states:
Our galaxy contains countless habitable planets surrounding countless stars much like our own
Many of these planets have existed far longer than our own, allowing more time for advanced life to evolve, and thus advanced space travel
Therefore, our galaxy should be teeming with aliens or evidence thereof
Evidence for alien life remains conspicuous by its absence.
There is a good article on the Fermi paradox on Wikipedia:
Or, if you are more of a visual/auditory learner (or simply enjoy good animation and pop culture references) check out this excellent youtube video:
I can see how alien life that has evolved to have a similar suite of capacities to our own might be a threat to Christianity so long as one insists on believing that only Christianity has plumbed the depths of the mystery known as God and distilled the answers to all the big questions. But if the Bible and Christian theology is seen instead as the best we can do but recognize our own limitations are likely to color our perception of the divine then maybe alien life isn’t such a threat. Other sapient life forms would just experience the mystery in a way that reflects their own limitations. The encounter could remain civil so long as both acknowledge that neither sees the mystery itself but only as mediated by its particular evolved nature.
This is shown to be wrong with regards to both effect and duration. People stop believing in God and Christianity because of the problem of evil. They do not stop believing because of the idea of aliens. The problem of evil first introduced by Epicurus in 300BC has endured, for while people find answers that satisfy themselves, others do not find the answers satisfactory.
We find all the same challenges in confronting other human cultures and religions (including atheism). And it is true that the diversity of human culture has been a reason given for disbelief. So I would agree that this is a challenge that rational believers should confront and they do. But the changes required to meet that challenge are much easier than the ones involving the problem of evil.
And what did we do when we found a human culture practice of cannibalism?
Ah… the super superficial understanding of “image of god” as anthropomorphic. While that may be problem in some religions which conceive of god in such a form, this is not a problem in Judeo-Christianity. We see God in many form which are far from humanoid like the burning bush. And the teaching of the Bible is quite opposed to the idea that God can reduced to any visible form: John 4:24, Deut 4:15, 1 Timothy 1:17, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16, Col 1:15.
Now you are contradicting yourself… It seems you are quite aware that the idea of aliens is ONLY a problem with your own ideas of God and not such a great challenge to Christianity after all.
The story of angelic beings interbreeding with humans and siring giants is one of the most puzzling stories in scripture. It’s probably a borrowed story from pagan mythology inserted here to show how desperately evil mankind had become. How would angels be genetically compatible with humans so they could produce offspring? And why would angels be genetic at all? They don’t need to make babies.
It isn’t for me. John 14:2. “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.”
Thanks for your stimulating response, Mitchell… I’ll attempt to reply as best as I can.
I don’t follow I am afraid. I’m not sure that the age of the PoNE means that it trumps the potential problem of Extra-terrestrial life. Neither does the fact that people are not currently leaving Christianity due to the possibility of ET life, since alien life at present functionally does not exist. Whether or not little green men exist on a far off planet is largely a thought experiment for most people with no (or very few) practical implications on people’s everyday lives and faith. Meaningful contact with an advanced alien race would, I believe, change that. But I may also be wrong, such is the nature of opinions.
I’m glad we agree. However, your comments on ease of the challenge is largely your own opinion. I’m yet to be convinced that an encounter with alien life can be theological smoothed over for traditional Christianity.
As I said, biblically, sin is a human category. A category under which I would include cannibalism. So, I’m not sure I follow your point.
I don’t envision God in human form (other than in the incarnation). If I implied this in my post it was a mistake on my part and entirely unintentional. The Image is usually understood to be some human quality, qualities, function, or status. Given that theologians cannot even agree on what the Image of God is (both now and in the past), I doubt the presence of ET life will help resolve the empasse. Perhaps that is too pessimistic.
I really don’t appreciate that having my mind read or motives assigned. Also, since more or less everyone on the forum knows that I am a self-confessed theologically conservative Christian, and that I am suggesting the challenge exists for theologically traditional Christianity, I would suspect that your observation is somewhat obvious. Even so, if you are simply going to dismiss what I’ve said with a mere wave of the hand, I’m not sure why you would bother reply at all.
That’s true and I think the threat is neutralized if one accepts @Terry_Sampson’s idea of the many rooms/one mansion. However, I don’t think atheism is anything in and of itself. A denial of the mystery is not the same thing as rejecting any particular instantiation of it as the one and only.
Fair points, Mark. Perhaps you are simply more optimistic than I am(!). However, whilst traditional Christian orthodoxy has never claimed to have ‘plumped the depths’ nor have to have 'answered the big questions, it has held that Christianity alone offers the path to knowing and being known by God. And that humanities relationship to God is unique in the created order. The existence of advanced alien life would, I believe, put that view under extreme pressure. Some might see that as a good thing, others would not.
As far as the Nephilim comes into being I don’t think it’s real at all. I think its a metaphors for powerful men because again and gain we see Israel going up against these descendants that pop up even after their supposed death in the flood. I think it
Was actually written as just purely mythology and later on that pattern was taken and used to link to powerful enemies that desires Gods strength for them to overcome so that they can never boast they did it.
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
33
The Fermi paradox is bunk. It is universally, technologically, economically, politically impossible to communicate let alone travel over interstellar distances. Ever. This galaxy alone swarms with life and therefore species with shared intentionality. All galaxies in all universes always have. No empirical i.e. scientific proof is necessary, so the impossibility of it is irrelevant. Theology that doesn’t assume that as a given has to come back from its cul-de-sac and catch up.
That certainly one answer to the paradox. However, I would gentle suggest your conclusion is not based on evidence, since, no evidence for alien life exists (that we have found). Again, my point: alien life functionally does not exist.
As such, your argument also, I would suggest, is based on faith not on hard science.
This too is a faith-based argument in my opinion.
Saying that they are faith-based is not to disparage either argument, more an observation that they cannot be proven one way or the other.
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
36
I’m an original 79 man and the first two movies. You can keep the rest.
I’ve devoured sci-fi since Heinlein’s Starman Jones in '65. The year I discovered Hiroshima. And Auschwitz…
Fermi and evangelical denial of the eternality of conscious life are sci-fi. The latter is really bad sci-fi. It was an item of unshakable faith for me for most of my life.
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
37
No empirical proof is necessary. It has nothing to do with faith. Just rationality. Faith cannot argue equality with that.
How is this any different to blind faith? Whilst on the subject of faith and reason: Why is it more rational to believe in an eternal universe but less rational to believe in a finite or even cyclical one?
You are the one asking what we would do if we encountered aliens with a “cultural practice of murder or lying.” Frankly, it seems to me that aliens might judge that we are the ones with such a culture. But my point was that a cultural practice of cannibalism has already been encountered right here on the earth in our own species, and that is as alien as it gets. You might want to look into why that wasn’t such a crisis of faith as you seem to think it would be.
The way you dismiss the problem of evil? And I did not simply dismiss… I presented good evidence why the problem of evil is the more significant theological problem.
On FTL being nothing but pure fantasy, Klax and I agree. But the energy cost of stellar travel while prohibitive and impractical does not equal an impossibility. It makes me wonder whether Klax really understands the physics involved. Nor do we have evidence yet that the universe “swarms with life.” I agree with you that His “certainty” on these matters is not only faith but downright strange. Its like we are dealing with a new religion that believes in universalism, an infinite multiverse, abundant life in this universe, and last but least rational an absolute impossibility of stellar travel. Certainty on these things don’t come from the Bible or science… so that suggests a new religion of his own.
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