Adam as the first human is theologically necessary or not?

If you’re still taking suggestions this is the meaning I can make of Adam and Eve story. I’d be interested if this feels compatible with Christian theology, its spirit if not letter of the teaching. First I have to make it clear I don’t think of God as a parent, liege lord or literal creator of atoms, galaxies and cells. I think what gives rise to God belief is the apprehension of our utter dependence on something which makes our way of being possible. Most of what we experience and about which we can seek to gather knowledge, is first screened and presented for our conscious consideration already infused with emotional significance. This is what no computer will ever be able to do no matter how well they may fool a human observer. We care about what happens, not as a result of a conscious cognitive involvement, but because we are created that way by something within that is not well understood. I could call it processes but that could promote a groundlessly mechanistic interpretation.

Getting back to the Eden story what I see is an injunction not to forget or ever think we can usurp the place of this mysterious beneficial grounding which holds us up and makes people possible. Of course there is nothing intrinsically the matter with knowledge, reason and understanding. The mistake which lets evil into the world which has been created for us is believing that our own efforts can ever take the place of what is and must be provided. Science has no way to create an artificial substitute for what it is which grounds our experience, which essentially makes us possible and the world comprehensible in a human fashion.

In a simpler less, culturally overlaid world our astonishment at what we are and what we are given would be inescapable. In the times in which we live, where information and knowledge seem almost limitless it is very easy to think we create ourselves and this mastery of the world is all our own doing. But if we are afflicted with a stroke we might retain a grasp of the facts and yet find ourselves rudderless to navigate any of it. The prioritization of importance and urgency which had formerly been provided as a gift can go missing and I think that would be a kind of hell.

I don’t think the lesson of the story can be that we should remain simple and give up all means of self determination. But that is something which should always be informed by our regard for the inner mystery that makes us possible. Our inputs are valuable and our creation is not a mistake, it is only thinking our own efforts is all that matters.

So should this inner mystery remain formless? I don’t think so. But we should remember the descriptions we come up with are never literally the truth. We should judge our conceptions instead by whether it facilitates a productive partnership with this ground of being and helps us remain mindful of its essential importance. Questions regarding descriptions carried by stories which have become literalizations like those involving the flood, the garden or creation are actually profane, constituting golden calves which are favored over that which we cannot reduce to an object or fact.

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The works of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jonah, Micah, Jesus, Paul, Gregory of Naziansus, Shakespeare, George MacDonald, Kierkegaard, Barth, Gandhi, Viktor Frankl, Dr. Martin Luther King, Paul Ricouer, Henri Nouwen, Carl Rogers, Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, Tony Campolo, Rachel Held Evans, Pete Rollins, Oprah Winfrey, Brené Brown, Steve Chalke.

That if Love grounds being, They are competent.

I cannot believe you excluded Borat 🙅

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And Brian! Yours? Apart from Borat?

Since I share a sincere love of MacDonald, Nouwen, and most of those you name (not knowing all of them), I also (tongue in cheek) like Charles Schulz (Peanuts) and Calvin and Hobbes (what great namesakes).
Have a good morning!

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I just archived a draft to the pastor of a church I have been attending, in which I made reference to the Judean People’s Front and the People’s Front of Judea.

I do strongly feel any theology that can’t stand up to both science and satire, is worthless.

If you’re arcing back to philosophy, I always thought even the nihilists were self-obsessed.

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Yeah, they operate out of pique.

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Woe is me! I have all my material needs met. Yet still everything sucks. Shall I a) pretend nevertheless I have something worthwhile to say about how it all sucks, b) die, c) pull other tricks. Pretty much only c remains a viable option, for nonbelievers.

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I am not a biologist but AFAIK, you can’t generate a viable population from just one breeding pair. The offspring will suffer from lack of diversity, if a fatal disease hits one it may kill them all. And of course, there will be inbreeding problems. Furthermore, modern DNA analysis would show a founder effect.

The genealogies are certainly theological. But they are such using characters perceived by most to be historical at the time. Jesus is traced back through real individuals finally to Adam, a figure I am not sure Jewish people in the first century had any real reason to doubt. Do you know of any evidence to the contrary?

Paul’s argument in Romans makes little sense to me if Adam is not singular there (just as one man). Though somehow all sinned through Adam as well according to him. A statement that is not very palatable to my modern sensibilities.

And both the person (Jacob) who was named Israel, and the nation, are not deemed literary fictions. As you mention, Hosea (and you) believe in historical figures here. Somehow all these other figures are historical and were treated as such, at least by ancient standards, but somehow we are to read Adam differently because we know better? Aka, scripture would be wrong on this point otherwise. This is the definition of eisegesis.

Matthew is writing theological fiction here. Good fiction but fiction none the less. But Egypt existed, Israel existed, Nazareth existed, Galilee existed, Herod Existed, Pharaoh existed. Jesus’ parent existed. Jesus existed. I see no reason to believe Matthew would have doubted the gist of the Exodus narrative or the historicity of Moses, both of which are seriously in dispute. Same for Jesus who claims “Moses wrote bout me.”

As noted, in all the former cases, real people, nations and places were used. Exegesis dictates that Adam is viewed in a similar fashion. The record of the NT’s use of the OT overall suggests it took the vast majority of those stories as “real.” Of course their fluid use of the text strongly pushes them away from modern day inerrancy advocates. There was nothing “immutable” about it.

I can appeal to the tortoise and the hare to make a point but my whole audience knows the story is fictional from the outset. This is not the case with reference to fictitious accounts in the OT by NT authors.

It also brings up the case of deception for some. Did Jesus not know Moses didn’t write the Pentateuch? Or that he probably didn’t exist as such? Did Jesus appeal to a widely accepted story as if it were true knowing full well it was a myth? Some would see this as too dishonest for Jesus. Personally, I think Jesus and Paul both probably thought Adam was a real figure, that Moses wrote much of the Pentateuch, that signifiant parts of Gen 1-11 are historical.

All things they got very much wrong. All these “literary reference” arguments are entirely unconvincing. It is just bad exegesis completely disconnected from the times. Adam is only a theological necessary for those who think scripture cannot err on anything, It is a theological necessity for an outdated, broken and easily discredited model of Biblical inspiration. Naturally Christians convinced of evolution have to try to rationalize and make Jesus and Paul correct somehow. Its not good exegesis

Vinnie

That’s why creationists hypothesize some kind of specially created “perfect genome” for Adam and Eve with all human variability within it and no mutations. It’s not scientific, it’s imaginative. When you deny evolution is a reality, you can throw out known things like how population genetics work as “not biblical.”

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Luke actually traces one link farther back – to God. Even so, I don’t think Luke believed that God biologically fathered Adam. On the other end of the chain, Luke also shows that the first link is not about biological parentage: Jesus “was the son (as was thought) of Joseph.”

Why would Luke present this complex genealogy where both the first and last links are decoupled from historical ancestry? Perhaps he’s winking to his readers by presenting this delicate 77-link chain that was commonly held after he’s already shown a direct link – Jesus, son of God (1:35; 2:49).

If that’s the purpose, I think mining the chain for historical data will be an exercise in missing the point.

Yes, it’s singular – just as “my son” is singular in Hosea and Matthew even when it applies to the nation of Israel. Matthew isn’t comparing Jesus to the man named Jacob/Israel whose remains were carried out of Egypt. He’s echoing God’s rescue of the nation from Egypt in the exodus. He can still do that even though he speaks of Israel as a singular son. And Paul can still evoke the wider story of Humanity while speaking of Adam as one man.

Adam, like Israel, is a name that invites collective readings (especially when it appears sans Eve).

I’m suggesting the historicity of the individuals doesn’t matter for the points being made. I’m sure Matthew thought Jacob was a real person, but the movement of his corpse is not at all critical to what Matthew’s saying about Jesus. Perhaps Paul thought Adam and Eve were real people too (he would have had no reason to doubt and no ability to check, so it would simply be taken on faith). But what he says about Adam doesn’t depend on the historical figure. It depends on Adam’s story accurately reflecting the story of humanity.

The gap between collectivist and individualist mindsets is one way we don’t know better so much as know differently. Our culture is so individualist that whenever biblical authors show a collective connection, we tend to either reject it outright or look for a way to show its truth for each individual. We typically resist accepting responsibility for what has been done by the group we’re part of, especially if it was done long before we were born. Many formulations of original sin would be prime examples of how we feel the need to show how something is literally true at the level of every individual in order to preserve a collective connection. I think those in collectivist cultures (such as biblical authors and who they wrote to) had an easier time accepting their real participation and responsibility within a group without needing to literalize it at an individual level.

We’re on the same page about Pentateuch authorship, but for me, it doesn’t matter that Jesus refers to it as what Moses wrote. I refer to what Luke or Matthew wrote without always feeling the need to give my opinion on gospel authorship. Even if Jesus believed it, it would just show that he did truly learn and grow as a real human and the Spirit felt no need to supernaturally correct his thinking on that point. I have no more issue with Jesus attributing Genesis to Moses than with God attributing human thinking to our heart and kidneys.

Perhaps that happens in Paul, or in 1 Timothy 2. But I’d rather say they had no way to know or check whether it was true, so they used what they did have – the story.

With Jesus, I’d make the stronger claim that he discouraged an individual-focused reading of Adam and Eve. I mentioned up-thread how Jesus seems to go out of his way not to appeal to them as mere individuals.

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I agree mostly with this. Luke is not trying to list Jesus’ ancestors for the sake of giving us a list of names. His list is theological to the extreme and that is its primary point. My only gripe with liberals, of who I am one so I can pick on them, is I don’t doubt for a second on exegetical grounds these authors assumed these events were true or that this list is real and that scripture also assumes that as background information. I mean its only one opinion but maybe reading Josephus’s History of the Jews would be illustrative! But aside from the names of Jesus’ parents and potentially the virgin birth (RCC doctrine!), I reject the historicity of just about every other detail in the infancy narratives (IN). Definitely from Nazareth. Even under Q, I think Luke’s IN came in a second or later edition of his work (chapter 3 looks like a beginning) and was a reaction, probably to Matthew’s or other accounts he heard or read (probably an 'I’ll show you how to write a birth narrative" type of sentiment). Luke botches the census but that census absolutely was real like list of names Luke found. And maybe the first and last link aren’t biological (some might claim Joseph was the “legal” father but both God and Joseph are not fictions. That is my only point. Luke, like much of the NT, is using things he and the people around him did not take as fairy tales. I am offering a reaction against the idea that these are just literary references and we can’t be sure they thought they were real people. That is just bad exegesis. Scripture is written in the knowledge of its day and these stories and peoples were real and really happened. But I agree the point of scripture in this instance is not the factuality of the historical assumptions. The infancy narratives are profoundly true if we grasp their deeper meaning. They speak more about belief in Jesus ca. 80-100 and what it meant in a covenantal historical sense than they do about events that occurred during the end of Herod’s reign. Matthew is displaying literary and theological genius through historicized fiction.

Jesus was not trying to teach or convince anyone Moses wrote the Pentateuch. He was using conventional knowledge and offering a reductio ad absurdum argument in response to his opponents.

I agree it doesn’t matter. Genesis 1 still speaks to me of an omnipotent deity, transcending those other gods around him at the time. He creates by a mere word. I think Adam and Eve’s expulsion from the Garden might very well have meant to symbolize Israel during the exile. They sinned and God kicked them out of the Garden. Paul used this story, which he probably accepted as true, to tie Jesus in as the redeemer of humanity. If we take Adam as Israel then Jesus is actually here to restore the people of Israel to their proper status in some sense. I am not a fan of the “sin is some tangible thing God brought into the world and could not forgive people because of it until Jesus conquered it on the cross” type modern conservative ideology

I am the same but its due to laziness. I am convinced all four are anonymous but “Mark” is easier than “Gospel of Mark” which is easier still than “Gospel attributed to Mark.” But in scholarly circles this is known to all discussing it. I don’t think its deceptive in non-scholarly circles either because when I am at conservative Bible study, no one cares about who authored it despite them accepting the connection to Peter. It’s still sacred scripture inspired by God. Its human author doesn’t very much matter at that point. God is probably bemused at some times over the import we put into quibbling over who wrote what and when.

Vinnie

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Looking back, I realize I never gave any reply. Sorry! Yeah… Barron keeps with the Catholic acceptance of deep time and evolutionary history. So he wouldn’t have any problem seeing or finding deeper meanings in the text than mere surface narrative. That said, I can’t speak either way as to whether he sees any scriptural importance attached to a historical person(s) there. I suspect probably not.

Has it been said already?! Adam is only theologically necessary for PSA.

Adam explains how man GOT here, not some evolutionary process.
Adam explains our predicament and the need for a pardon.
Adam explains why Christ came.

SURE there will be those trying to squeeze the Bible into molds!

Of course, the question is what you mean by “Adam.”
Does Adam mean a specific individual in a historical setting?
Does Adam mean the situation and response of Adam?
Does Adam mean Adam’s story as an explanatory illustration of sin and how it affects our relationship with God?
Does Adam mean Adam as a representaton for ourselves?

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I think he means A&E are golems of dust and bone made by necromancy.

This pamphlet burb is a tiny bit more comprehensible than the one in the other thread… I think? Looks like a choice between 4 alternative explanations of the text: universalist Gnosticism, damnationalism, reincarnation, or materialism.

If I have to choose among these 4, I would go with the materialist explanation of God’s words but I would consider it rather incomplete for both Jesus and Paul constantly speak of an existence after death, the most informative being the following from Paul…

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14 if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.

20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 “For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection under him,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.

29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30 Why am I in peril every hour? 31 I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! 32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” 34 Come to your right mind, and sin no more. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

35 But some one will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[b] also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Since we have a physical body, Paul says we also have a spiritual body. But that doesn’t mean the spiritual body is alive… without resurrection it is dead. And so God was not a liar when He said Adam and Eve would die on the day they ate the fruit, and it also explains what Jesus said in Luke 9:60 “Let the dead bury their own dead.” Even when we are physically alive we can be spiritually dead, and obviously it is our spiritual life which is the more important of the two.

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Paul doesn’t mean that at ALL! Please read the whole chapter!

No, the BIBLICAL version of Adam, that Christ referred to as an individual!