Adam And Eve Literacy

Wrong! God is spirit. Angels are spirit. We have a spiritual body according to Paul which requires resurrection. This spiritual God created the physical universe. And our spiritual body gives us an existence after physical death. All of this is supernatural.

Huh? Nothing I have said fits anywhere in science. Science requires objective demonstrable measurable evidence and there is none for anything I have been saying.

But perhaps what you meant to say or should have said because you are confusing the two is RATIONAL EXPLANATION. YES I certainly do insist on rational explanations. That means I do require there to be logical connections between cause and effect. Claiming that innocent people can literally pay for the crimes of guilty people is not rational – that is so lacking in rationality, it is downright insane. So I have been insisting this is metaphorical, and that when the innocent suffer because of what we do then this motivates us to change. That is a rational explanation.

Are you kiding me ?How many peasants got killed because their monarch was … you know what in the medieval ages?They paid full the sins of their governor
The society is full of examples like the one above.

Plus do you think a man made word such as rationality can understand and explain eveyrthing?Your (ours) little mind cannot even comprehend some things ,let alone explain them .The human mind is capable of many things but rationality cannot be applied everywhere because it is a human creation

Yet you deny the miracles God did .The one who created the physical world.Again if i create a house i can do whatever i want.I can even reujust its columns and still not fall if i do it carefully

I don’t believe in “magic” either.
Yet, there is a long held truism:

“Magic is what we say when we are unable to recognize the source or mechanism of an event.”

Raising people from the Dead? Magic. Healing with a touch? Magic. Breath of Life? Magic!
John defines our world in John 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Yeshua Jesus gives Nicodemus a Masters’ Class lesson in defining Magic in John

Jo 3:12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Now I see how the snake felt lol jk.

1 Like

YES that is the same kind of metaphor I have been using. The innocent do suffer because of the sins of the guilty and the fact they do can even motivate people to change. That is exactly what I have been saying all along. This is the truth in the judicial/sacrificial metaphor of the atonement. Jesus’ death on the cross motivates people in the same way.

I have said the same thing elsewhere. I have even backed it up with science to say that quantum logic demonstrates that our everyday logic may be limited. BUT I also say that we cannot abandon what we do understand of logic without descending into meaningless noise.

Incorrect. I affirm all the miracles God did. But it is the fact that God did them that makes them miracles. What I deny is that any of it is magic and contrary to the laws of nature. Remember the example of the computer designed to do what we command – obviously God would make the universe like that too in some way. He doesn’t need to break his own laws and use necromancy. I think trying to put a divine stamp of approval on necromancy and blood sacrifices is very wrong!

Exactly! It all sounds like CPR and waking up people with comas. It would indeed all have been seen as magic. Let’s go with the “magic” that actually works instead of fairy tales, what do you say?

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

I believe. I believe in the spiritual aspect to reality which does not conform the the mathematical laws of nature of the space-time physical universe. But I do insist it conforms to the limits of rationality – that is the difference between reality and a dreamworld. I even believe there is some limited interaction between spiritual and physical – the limits are established by the hard fact that science works. Science shows the repeatable patterns – what is demonstrable for all to see no matter what they want or believe. Thus any connections outside what science shows is not repeatable or demonstrable and the skeptic can and will dismiss it as coincidental, even though I do not. Otherwise it would BE one of those mathematical laws of nature.

All claims prior to those of incarnation are irrelevant to it. All claims associated with it are relevant according to their proximity. To rationalize them away whilst insisting on it is not consistent, internally or against the meshes of literary criticism, textual analysis, theology, philosophy.

It’s weak.

If I own incarnation, I own the cursed, supernaturally withered fig tree.

Since necromancy is some kind of spell thing did Jesus used any spell to wake up Lazarus? I think not. Plus necromancy is also connected woth the devil. Ive never read anywhere in history not in fiction someone who did wake up dead people as Jesus did. Also keep in mind the OT passage where the which summoned the spirit . God allowed it. And remember the same miracles that the wizards of the pharao did in front of Moses. What Moses did they did it as well

Jesus’s atoning sacrifice never was a metaphor, it is TRUTH! God said, “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins”. The spotless Lamb of God took His blood to the mercy seat in heaven. What the shadow of a real lambs blood could not do was create a new spirit within a man, it only covered his sins but the blood of the Lamb of God offered once and for all takes away the past sins and the new creature that is created in Christ by his atoning sacrifice and caring those who put all their trust in Him through death and into Eternal Life actually transfers them from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of God. They are recreated in Christ, a new creation, born of the Spirit by the will of the Father, sons and daughters of the Most High God.

2 Cor 5:14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Like

No Junia said it. Based on a myth set fifteen hundred years before.

I think some people have a really weird reaction to the word “metaphor.” It most certainly DOES NOT mean the opposite of the word “truth.”

Yes Jesus really died for our sins. He suffered because of human beings are sinful, but He suffered willingly. He was not simply a victim. He did indeed have victory over death and sin, not just personally but as a gift for all of us to accept. It is also true that what He did was for those who accept that gift to be a new creation conformed to the image of Christ.

But the judicial metaphor is only one of several metaphors for the atonement in the Bible and it is a metaphor because while it has points of similarity there are also big differences. There is also the ransom metaphor and again there are similarities and differences. We are not literally kidnapped with Satan demanding a payment in ransom. It is absurd to think Satan can actually do such a thing, as if God could not find us and take us back. But there are many ways in which the metaphor works because we are in bondage to sin.

The judicial metaphor also works, but it is a metaphor because this isn’t really about justice. It is taking this literally that has Christians scrambling to make arbitrary exceptions for children to make it sound more like justice than simply monstrous. Besides no sane justice system allows an innocent to pay for the crime of a guilty person. Nor did Jesus literally take our place either in hell nor in annihilation (if you believe in that). It is also crazy and demonstrably wrong that God really needs such an elaborate setup in order to forgive people. This really isn’t about what God needs, but what we need in order to change. And we can find numerous examples of how causing the innocent to suffer quite often is what it takes to make us do that.

Nor are we literally recreated for our sins are still with us. But we have allowed God to do what it takes to remove those sins in a long process of sanctification, which rather clearly must extend long after death.

AND I don’t believe any of this is necromancy or some magical power of blood sacrifices. Again, the scripture that there is no remission without the shedding of blood is also a metaphor for otherwise you make Jesus a liar when He said to people that their sins were forgiven. The point of that scripture is that cheap forgiveness simply doesn’t work and makes things even worse than they were before. Mercy only makes sense when it HELPS us to learn from our mistakes and thus to change. Otherwise it is just stupid. The Bible is full of metaphors and parables. Literalism is the refuge of those who don’t want to understand what the Bible is saying.

What does that, and what follows, mean? Not what did it mean to the early Church. What does it mean now? How does it deconstruct and reconstruct in any meaningful way? For the whole of humanity from the past and next forty thousand years at least.

I was quite surprised when I looked up the meaning of the word “necromancy.” Its meaning has changed considerably in common usage because of use of the word in a large number of games, novels, and films for something quite different than what you find in the dictionary. Google and the dictionaries identify it with divination by raising spirits or the dead bodily. But in games it also used to describe a whole range of magic involving life and death including creating golems, summoning skeletons and spirits, returning some semblance of life to dead bodies, or even black magic or witchcraft. As for being connected with the devil that certainly depends on what game you play, story you read, or mythology you buy into. Frankly, 99% of the “devil” stuff is something people will accuse of being involved in ANYTHING they just don’t like and want to vilify, including D&D, meditation, or Harry Potter.

Not really.Here in Greece some priests used to say dumb things like that but other than that it wasnt asoociated.I was a fun of Harry Potter used to watch it with my brother on the tv.I played D&D a couple of times.The real necromancy stuff or “magic” stuff is usually associated with the occult.And no not the edgy teenager who picked up a random book of spells on the near shop drawing a pentagram on his hand

Of course I cannot comment on the social attitudes in Greece… only USA. And in the USA you will find such accusations for all three of these.

But there seems to be a disconnect here… ??? Are you equating the word “occult” with some involvement with the devil because that is not in the definition of that word either.

The definition i get is
mystical, supernatural, or magical powers, practices, or phenomena.So there is a connection with this "magic " and these dark practises.So to give you an example.When some “occult” members here in my local area go to the forest burning animals in the name of satan ,you can only guess that they are either mentaly unstable or really practise some weird stuff

And since i have encountered one of them they seem pretty stable in my opinion.But yeah the conclusion is yours i guess

It is worthwhile noting which points in Genesis 1–3 have less strong analogies with the present providential order. All the analogies involve both similarity and dissimilarity. So analogy is a matter of degree.

The descriptions in Genesis 1 regularly use analogies connected to the natural processes in the present-day world in order to provide a simple, easily understood, nontechnical description of what God did. Genesis 1 offers us a true description, but it does not delve into technical details that are of most interest to modern science.

Poetic passages in the Old Testament compare God’s acts of creation to the human work of building a house or erecting a tent:

  He built his sanctuary like the high heavens,
  like the earth, which he has founded forever. (Ps. 78:69)

  [He] builds his upper chambers in the heavens
  and founds his vault upon the earth. (Amos 9:6a)

  [He] stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
  and spreads them like a tent to dwell in. (Isa. 40:22b)

  My hand laid the foundation of the earth,
  and my right hand spread out the heavens. (Isa. 48:13a)

  [He] stretched out the heavens and
  laid the foundations of the earth. (Isa. 51:13b)

Providence is distinct from the work of creation, but the two are closely related. The one leads to the other. God’s works of creation establish patterns that he maintains by providence. We can see this point illustrated at some length in Psalm 104.

This psalm reflects on creation, but contains a good deal of material that meditates on the providential governance of God subsequent to the completion of the six days of creation. One verse, verse 30, even uses the word created in a context that refers to the fact that God brings to life the next generation of animals: “When you send forth your Spirit, they [animals] are created, and you renew the face of the ground.”

God’s description of his creative works in Genesis 1 instructs the Israelites through analogies with providence.

Analogies between the acts of creation and works in providence have a key role in the meanings communicated in Genesis 1.

You can see the use of analogy by considering Psalm 104:30. God providentially brings new animals into existence, and the psalmist describes this work of God by saying that animals are created (the same Hebrew word, bara’ ברא, as in Gen. 1:1).

They are created by analogy with the original creation of new things in Genesis 1. But the relationship between the passages involves an analogy, not an identity, since Genesis 1 discusses the origins of the different kinds of animals, while Psalm 104:30 discusses the continuation of the kinds that already exist.

The use of analogies between creation and providence also makes sense because the ordinary experiences of the Israelites and other people involve interaction with God’s providential activities in the world around them.

Therefore, their experience of providence offers a natural starting point for virtually any ordinary human understanding of creation.

The Bible also provides theological reasons for expecting that God may have set in place many analogies between creation and providence:

(1) the works of creation and the works of providence come from the hand of the same God, who exercises the same wisdom in both cases (Ps. 104:24; Prov. 8:27–31);

(2) God plans that creation should form the foundation for later providential developments;

(3) God’s plan for the whole of history has inner unity, and this unity includes a fundamental unity of purpose with respect to creation and providence together; and

(4) God reflects his character in the works within the created world, and this reflection includes a pattern in which God displays some specific aspects of his character in the things that he has made.

This pattern of reflecting God’s character extends to both creation and providence.

2 Likes

So according to you mister Paul the narrative is an analogy?

For what? Genesis 1 is a beautiful anthropomorphization of God. A projection of the better angels of our nature. All too brief.