Just speaking from past experience. And it is misleading to make a generalization from a limited statement.
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The legends (worded in the ancient tribal hymn) lie cradled
In the seagulls call
And all the promises they made are ground beneath the sadists fall
Yes! Agreed. It liberates us from the evil of damnationism.
There is annihilationism, though, as opposed to lollipops for Hitler.
Why do you, personally, want to murder Hitler?
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Doest thou knowest from wherest the above sentence cometh? Look above it too for the entire thought. Our good buddy spoke
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Part of their problem is rather prickly. Demanding to be taken seriously and venerated to the highest degree are not realistic once you have tossed a third (roughly) of the NT before commencing their craft upon the body of work under examination. It would be like evaluating the efficacy of a new drug after a test trial, but dumping the results on all the controls prior to analyzing the results and proclaiming success.
Wot?! Do you think I am?!
I don’t. He’s already dead. If he were still alive, I’d be okay with his assassination, however.
So in the resurrection you expect God to. In late '44 we Brits developed a perfect plan to do just that. And decided it was better for him to remain in charge as his decisions were so bad.
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… to be just. He knows a little more about true love and true justice than you or I. I don’t think the former makes the latter go away.
I don’t really know what it means to “die to the Law of sin that is in the flesh.” Can you explain what that means? I believe in being born again but not as some mystical cosmic incident where a debt was paid. Feeling the forgiveness and love of God changes a person. Forming a relationship with God and seeing his love through his Son Jesus sets us on a new path. We are no longer merely “of the world.” We are of God and are to live accordingly and bring his message of love, forgiveness and ethical commands to everyone.
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I understand your concern but it is intellectually unwarranted. If maybe there were only a few passages pertaining to the basic idea of salvation, or maybe even just a dozen, your concerns might be vlid. But the entire thrust of all four Gospels and the entire NT is grounded in and preaches Jesus. If the entire thrust of the New Testament is wrong, then we have nothing to discuss. Christianity would simply not be true and the inspiration of the Bible would be completely meaningles at best and more probably a fictitious idea.
So no, I don’t see the entire thrust and explicit teaching of the NT and early church being undercut by potential errors if you believe in inspiration. There is still a message in the trees somewhere, or a push to be seen by God in “material falsehood.” There are different models of inspiration and different understanding of scripture and revelation.
Could you lose some certainty on a few doctrines? Sure. Is the bible no longer a factual encyclopedia of theological knowledge that can be proof-text hunted? It is not. But Christians disagree on a billion things already. Where has that indubitable certainty ever been? How important is it which model of substitutionary atonement you intellectually assent to, assuming you even accept a substitutionary model? What matters is being transformed by Jesus and the changes in your behavior that should result.
This is just a veiled form of “all or nothing.” It doesn’t work. Despite the errors that do exist, in his great care and providence, God left us no doubt about the importance of following Jesus in scripture. He gently nudged four authors to write four different portraits of him that are not all perfectly compatible in factual details or Christology. Jesus is so amazing words can hardly do him justice and each author described him as best as they could from their own communities perspective. Sure there is a lot in common and a lot that’s compatible, but I love that we have multiple, diverse communal perspectives on Jesus. We certainly don’t have a four-fold gospels because God forgot to write some stuff sown in Mark, then added to it in Luke and Matthew, and since he forgot all the I am stuff, he added it into John. Clearly human hands are all over these texts.
Being born again is just that, it’s a new birth, a rebirth of the spirit of a man.
John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Jesus said this to Nicodemus, John 3:3 “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Necodemus looked at that statement with a natural mind, He said, John 3:4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” But Jesus was not talking about the body, He was talking about the spirit of a man. John 3:5-7 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” It is the spirit of a man that is born again. A literal rebirth, an event that the Father wills and produces.
In 1John being born of God is spoken of multiple times. It is made clear here it is an actual event, not just a term for a different way of thinking. 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,
Another term used for this event is, New Creation. 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! Gal 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.” Being a new creation is just that. The spirit of man has been born of God and becomes a new creation, he is no longer what he was. If the word circumcision can be used to sum up the Law into one word, Paul is saying, that neither obedience to the Law or not obey means anything, what truly counts is being a new creation, born again. For it is the new birth, being “in Christ” that frees our spirit from the Law of Sin and Death, Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Above in 2 Cor 5:17 the phrase “in Christ” in mentioned. Do a study on this phrase and you will see that it is what a person is once they have true faith in Jesus. We no longer are what we were but we are literally “in Christ” now. United, bonded, one with Him, His very Spirit lives in us, we become a part of His body. The whole truth of being, “in Christ”, is what Jesus Himself revealed to Paul. As you read the NT, look for the phrase, “in Christ” and you will it pops up often.
Being “in Christ” is the Gospel. What the commandments of the Law couldn’t do was change the nature of a man, so God sent His son as a man to become sin, a curse, to die our death, to be judged and to be raised up from death. Death not just being the death of the body, but death, our spirits were dead, they did not have eternal life (not length of life but the nature of God’s life) in them.
In Christ, we are born again by the Spirit, we become New Creations, we are In Christ, united with Him in His death and resurrection. We have been united with Jesus in His crucifixion, Rom 6:6 “For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin,” and by our union with Him in His crucifixion,” our old self was crucified with him” so therefore, “we should no longer be slaves to sin”.
In the New Birth, our spirits are recreated in the righteousness of God, 2 Cor 5:20 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” So, since in Christ our old self was crucified and we were birthed by the Spirit of God, by God’s will, with His righteousness in our new spirits, those who have true faith are true sons and daughters of God, by nature. Children of God, not just a neat term for those who think differently now and try to do good and obey God. But an actual rebirth, a new creation, reborn by the very Spirit of God, we are, “In Christ”.
It is this New Birth, being In Christ, in actual union with Him that delivers us from the Law of Sin and death (Romans 7: 23, 35 and 8:2) that our old spirits were slaves to. In Romans 7, Paul is speaking about when he was under the Law of God. Even though the Law showed him what was right, he did wrong because he was a slave to the Law of Sin, the Law of God could not set Him free. Chapter 8 declares the freedom that comes by being “In Christ”. A person who is, in Christ, has died to the Law of Sin and has been reborn by the Spirit and will of the Father. The Law of God could not do this, but God did this In Christ for us. That is grace, unmerited favor. No amount of trying hard to do right could ever change your nature, but the Father did by placing those who turn to Jesus, In Christ. So when Jesus raised up from death, so did they who believe. The same Spirit that raised Jesus from death now dwells in those who believe, and it is this that gives us power and authority over sin and the devil.
Our union with Jesus the Christ, to be in Christ, is our only hope. Col 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
The cross of Christ is the work of the Father to bring us salvation from our enemy, sin. It is in the cross and all that it entails, His becoming sin, a curse, His death, the Father crushing Him (Isa 53:10) judgment and resurrection. That is why Paul makes this declaration, Gal 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” Through the cross of Christ, I have died to the ways of this world. Jesus has set my spirit free from it’s slavery to sin and the devil. For freedom sake, Christ set us free.
The Cross of Christ and all it includes, is the debt that was paid for our salvation, for our New Birth, to make us New Creations In Christ.
If a person only thinks being Born Again is just a phrase for a change of mind, and for trying to follow the teachings of Jesus, they do not understand what the Father actually did In Christ.
Study the scriptures with these thoughts in your mind. This is not some secret you have to twist your head and look a certain way to see it, it is everywhere. It is the Gospel.
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Did you ever read the pamphlet Tull placed inside the Aqualung album? They use old English. Kind of fun like giving a ring in Thick for no rational reason.
This comment/question is a request for the input of all of those interested in the subject material.[quote=“Vinnie, post:115, topic:46266”]
I understand your concern but it is intellectually unwarranted. If maybe there were only a few passages pertaining to the basic idea of salvation, or maybe even just a dozen, your concerns might be vlid. But the entire thrust of all four Gospels and the entire NT is grounded in and preaches Jesus. If the entire thrust of the New Testament is wrong, then we have nothing to discuss. Christianity would simply not be true and the inspiration of the Bible would be completely meaningles at best and more probably a fictitious idea.
[/quote]
The Bible is filled with Christ performing miracles. From his birth, through his life and even his resurrection miracles splash across its pages.
How can someone find the thrust of the NT to be salvation through Christ when so much of what it contains is utter nonsense, in their view? Who cares if the thrust is salvation when the NT is a thoroughly discredited book? How does its emphasis on salvation make salvation the only credible material in the NT, especially when miracles are interwoven with and a vital part of the presentation of the salvation message?
Isn’t the moment of opening oneself to God, repenting and aligning yourself to His Kingdom an event? I don’t doubt there is a spiritual aspect to it as well. But given that appears to be an immaterial realm that is difficult to “know” about, I will choose to emphasize being born again from concrete life experiences that I can understand. All this talk about a new creation needs to be tempered by the fact it can be interpreted in different ways. The physical makeup of my body stayed the same. It is my mind/will/spirit/soul that changes its orientation. That is the new creation to me.
I am not sure what to make of Paul in Romans yet. I need to do more research on newer perspectives on Paul and a Christian exegesis on Judaism that doesn’t caricature it all as hypocritical legalism. But one that takes things like Yom Kippur seriously as a Jewish practice.
Paul is most certainly speaking to Jewish Christians in the book of Romans in my eyes (at least large parts of it). He seems to be spending a lot of time forestalling their objections as well. I don’t take it seriously that we can relegate the whole law as simply making us aware of sin. There seems to be an expectation in the Old Testament that the Law could be followed and this would lead to a fruitful life. The idea that’s its purpose all along was merely to make us aware of sin since no one could ever follow seems to be a stretch to what is found in a lot of the OT. Paul also kind of backs himself into a corner and doesn’t do a good job of answering what good is being a Jew and what good is circumcision in Romans 3.
I don’t really subscribe to debt atonements. I don’t completely rule them out either. Maybe there is something to God’s justice that requires payment but I am not fully convinced of this. Jesus could pronounce sins forgiveness so I am not sure why God can’t either. We can forgive as well. God’s love, grace and mercy is far greater than what we are capable of. I’d pick a solidarity model of atonement over penal substation but also realize that the former might not do all scripture total justice. It really depends on how literally you take the, what I perceive to be metaphors. Much of it may simply be accommodating language and metaphors for a society steeped in the process of animal sacrifice.
I’ve always been suspicious of the idea of God desiring people to butcher innocent and helpless animals. And I would only buy into that if he pushed people in this direction as a way out of something far more heinous: child sacrifices. Some even think the history of the story about Abraham kind of gets at such a turning point. The transition from human to animal sacrifices. Then slowly God moved away from animal sacrifices towards Jesus, which he never truly wanted in the first place (I desire mercy…). That is how I see things though I would not try to exegetically convince others of this. Some of my thoughts are certainly subjective here. I admit to reading between the lines of scripture at times. I think such a practice is necessary for softer models of inspiration and views of accommodationists (I separate these two as I don’t think typical inspiration models with accommodation solve all the necessary difficulties).
Vinnie
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Forget your thoughts and study what Jesus and the apostles said and let those words renew your mind to the truth of God that is in Christ. As the apostle said. “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind”. What God did through the cross of Christ and a persons union with Him in it, is the New Covenant. Being literaly, Born Again, Born From above, Born of the Spirit, is God writing His law on our hearts. What obedience to the Law of God could not do is give you a new heart, spirit. It is only through the grace of God through the cross of Christ that this happens. It is abundantly plain in the NT. The Spirit says through the apostle, “What the Law could not do, God did by send His Son in the form of sinfull flesh to condemn sin in the flesh.” Grace did what the works of the Law could not do. What man could not do in his own strength. By the works of the Law, no one will be justifed, it is only through faith in what God did IN CHRIST. Instead of judging the scripture, let them judge your thoughts.
Would you say Christ is in you? If so, how is that possible? It can’t be just a mental thing, it would have to be a spiritual reality. He is at work in His people as the apostle says, "giving us both the desire and ability to do God’s will. Again, that is the New Covenant that is in Christs blood, the Law of God written on our hearts. We are saved through grace not works. No amount of mans effort could save him from the power of sin. Our spirits needed to die and be reborn, resurrected recreated In Christ to be set free from the Law of Sin and Death. Grace, unmerited favor, God’s work not ours. The teachings of Christ and the apostles declare this, it is not some hidden secret knowledge.
May God’s Spirit open your eyes to see the truth that is in Christ.
In reference to blood, God said there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes awy the sins of the world. His blood is the blood of the New Covenant.
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It is the Spirit of man that is born again from above. The body is not, obviously. The mind must be renewed by the Word of God.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength. Spirit soul and body.
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Not sure if it was @Randy who recommended it or Vinnie talking about it, but I was inspired to reserve the In The Beeginning book by Karen Armstrong. Just finished the opening chapter Wrestling With God and Scripture. Very intrigued to read more. I feel validated in my approach and in my hunch that what I’ve come to think is compatible with Christianity as she conceives it.
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