Academic persecution of ID proponents

Well, the Discovery Institute recently published a podcast with myself wherein I discuss the explanatory filter as applied to human design, and its ubiquity as such. In fact, the explanatory filter powers the very platform whereby you are writing your ideas.

https://www.discovery.org/multimedia/audio/2020/08/dembskis-id-filter-the-sea-his-critics-swim-in/

They invited me to do this podcast based on a Mind Matters article I wrote.

I am not sure why they would invite me to do this if what you say is true, that human design has nothing to do with ID theory. You should probably let them know about their mistake.

The ubiquity of Dembski’s “explanatory filter” to encompass all of the social sciences and humanities?! You’re reaching again, Eric. That’s not a very humble or balanced approach.

The already well-established areas of “design theory”, “design thinking” and “design history” have nothing to do with “ID theory”, and don’t use Dembski’s EF. Are you aware of this? What “ubiquity” are you posing exists among scholars that you don’t even have familiarity with?

"There are a number of non christian and atheist ID proponents."

There are no “atheist ID [theory] proponents”. I challenge you to name one who promotes it, rather than just saying something like “people should give it a chance”, like Bradley Monton. David Berlinski, an atheist Jew, allies with the DI because of his anti-Darwinism, not because he is pro-ID theory. He said his attitude toward ID theory is “warm but distant. It’s the same attitude that I display in public toward my ex-wives.” Can you name a single “atheist ID proponent”?

Indeed, ID theory is biased against atheists. One simply cannot accept the existence of a transcendent or supernatural Designer, and at the same time remain an atheist. It’s a contradiction in terms that makes no sense. This is one among many reasons why “ID theory” cannot be taught in public schools or universities. Neither you nor Dr. Michael Egnor with his convoluted talk can spin your way out of that.

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I recommend you read my article or listen to the podcast to figure out what I’m saying.

Francis Crick, Fred Hoyle, and Thomas Nagle are the main ones I have in mind.

You could count Anthony Flew as well, although the fine tuning argument eventually convinced him to become a theist. But, that is a consequence of the theory, not the theory itself.

Also, Roger Penrose could be classified as an atheist ID proponent, since he thinks the mind is a non algorithmic entity.

Ah, ok. Then I recommend you read my book on this topic, Eric, to figure out what I’m saying. How about that? Is that fair? You read my book, and then I’ll listen to your podcast with Rob Crowther. Deal?

Not long ago you were seen promoting “Intelligent Design” in economics and I listened to the podcast, which was terrible and misinformed about ID theory and its necessary limits. I responded there, as did you. But you ducked out, and didn’t reply. People can read your comments there, as well as mine, to see what happened. Ep. 106 Why Intelligent Design (ID) Will Be the Public Choice of the Natural Sciences - Bob Murphy Show

The book was never reviewed or responded to by the Discovery Institute, though they are aware of it. This is yet another example of getting “the silent treatment” because to address it would be very difficult for any IDist to do.

As to your "atheist ID [theory] proponents, let’s have a closer look, since the IDM has a penchant for trying to turn people into IDists who surely aren’t, in some cases, even after they’ve died (e.g. Flannery retrodicted & called A.R. Wallace the godfather of ID theory - Flannery: Who Is the “Godfather” of Intelligent Design? | Evolution News).

Francis Crick - nope. This is the information leap that the DI makes as part of it’s “design universalist” ideology. Information = Intelligence. Ok, which Intelligence? Not part of “biological ID theory”, which has a rule against identifying the Designer … because that would show it as “theistic science”, rather than “natural science”. So, strike one.

Fred Hoyle was self-contradictory on this topic. To suggest “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology” is not consistent with atheism. Which “superintellect”? He didn’t know. Hoyle was an agnostic, not an atheist. Important difference. Strike two.

Thomas Nagle [sic] - anti-Darwinism does not “pro-IDism” make. Defending IDists does not mean someone must be an ID proponent. Strike three.

Anthony Flew - exactly. He ceased being an atheist to accept some kind of “generic theism” that was consistent with “ID theory.” Thank you for proving the point! :joy:

When then DI President Bruce Chapman said the following, he revealed a very serious problem with the IDist approach, as well as disrespect for anyone who rejects their ideology to think for themselves. Chapman and the DI’s rhetoric shows that they wish to try to swallow every religious person with their ideology. No wonder why so many people around the world have resisted and rejected it.

“If, however, [someone] thinks that evolution happened, but by God’s design, then that is some form of intelligent design.” – Bruce Chapman Somebody Thinks He Speaks for the Pope | Evolution News

Here at BioLogos, they call this either “theistic evolution” or “evolutionary creation”, not “ID theory”. See here: How is Evolutionary Creation different from Evolutionism, Intelligent Design, and Creationism? - BioLogos

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For me it depends solely on what they teaching. If it’s related to evolution I would think it’s better they bounced and found another subject to teach. But ultimately I don’t really care either way.

I would say the ID perspective brings good balance to teaching evolution. Before researching ID, I would never have known how many incorrect things I had been taught regarding evolution. The actual state of the field is much different than what is taught in school.

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You certainly have a lot of accusations!

There is an important distinction between human intelligence and any sort of “outside of this world” intelligence. People have trouble with the transition from “human design looks like this” to “this biological thing looks designed” to “an intelligence created this biological thing”. I can understand that. It tripped me up for awhile, too. There is a constructive conversation to be had regarding the jump from human to non-human intelligence, and whether/how such an inference can be rationally made. Perhaps we should start a new thread on that topic.

It could just have been a bad school that taught you or one that did not dive into it as deeply.

What’s few things you were taught that ended up being false that ID pointed out?

Well, there are the common examples of moths changing color and finches’ beaks changing length that supposedly demonstrate evolution, but are only demonstrations of adaptation, not the kind of functional information creation that needs to happen for evolution to occur. Also, if I recall correctly, the moths example was actually staged by the researchers. Then, there is the fetal development that supposedly demonstrates evolution, which is known to be false. Then, there is the supposed tree of life which is not in actuality a tree.

What is not touched upon at all by my education is that there is no known mechanism to create new genes, yet it is genes that are the building blocks for organisms. If the origin of genes cannot be explained, then evolution does not really explain anything. So, the other aspect is how much is missing from evolutionary theory to make it actually an explanation of life as we know it.

Then, there is the mathematical aspect that there is a well defined bipartisan concept of design, used by both Dawkins and Dembski, as complex specificity. It turns out well established mathematics shows complex specificity cannot be generated by natural processes. Along with this is the computer science aspect of genetic algorithms, and how not very good they are, especially as a source of engineering innovation.

There are many aspects about the deficiencies of evolutionary theory I would not know about without knowing ID theory.

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They’re supposed to be demonstrations of natural selection – which they are. Who told you they were supposed to be demonstrations of the creation of (undefined) functional information? (And yes, they’re also demonstrations of evolution.)

You recall incorrectly.

What exactly were you taught about development and evolution?

True, the tree of life is not a strict tree – it’s actually a reticulated network. But a strict tree is a good approximation for lots of life and a reasonable pedagogical approach to introduce evolution in, say, middle school or high school. That the history of life is not a strict tree is of course a discovery of evolutionary biologists and has nothing to do with ID – so what’s it doing in this list?

If studying ID taught you that there is no known mechanism for creating new genes, you’d better unlearn ID. Where on earth did you get this idea from?

This is one of those claims that I see made repeatedly but that always evaporates upon closer inspection. What mathematics are you talking about here?

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Instead of accusations, I’m just going to tell the truth about what I experienced at the Discovery Institute’s summer program (DISP), and what I’ve observed of IDists for 15+ years, as a sociologist who has watched the IDM since 2004, when I wrote my master’s thesis partly about it. Is that ok by you, Eric? I expect push-back from you because of this, and will treat any such attempt as “sport”, ready to “play” with you, having some familiarity with the “playing field” that IDists prefer to operate on.

What I experienced at the DI has a name in psychology: brainwashing. The first day of the event, they (John G. West, among others) laid on the audience a “persecution complex”. They openly told the students that they would be “persecuted” and “treated unfairly” simply because they were researching “ID theory.” Thus, if they wanted to protect themselves in their careers, they shouldn’t let anyone know they are an “ID proponent” … until they get tenure. And they made it clear that they thought we should seek to get tenure, and then “come out” as ID theorists. These are just facts of what happened there, not “accusations”, though hyper-defensiveness was part of the rhetoric we were taught to use at DISP. It’s known in sociology as a “self-fulfilling prophecy” - IDists believe they will be “persecuted”, so they act in such a way that guarantees it in their own eyes.

What I discovered was that many Abrahamic monotheists reject the DI’s “persecution complex” and find it unjustified. That’s what this thread is about - supposed “Academic persecution of ID proponents”, so I’ll try to stick to that, after giving some of the background for this above.

It turns out I contacted Caroline Crocker, who you mentioned above, EricMH. She was quite nice in our communications and even published a shortened version of an article I wrote on her site (it’s gone now, and I’ve forgotten the name of the initiative she started, which lasted no more than a couple of years). Crocker unfortunately made a mistake and paid for it, as should have been expected. People can read more about it here: Evolution Topic: Was Caroline Crocker expelled?

Crocker’s story is consistent with what I wrote above:

IDists are “persecuted”, meaning not treated with welcome in the Academy, mainly because they have acted stubbornly regarding their “design fetish” and “design universalism”. They flat-out refuse to adapt or to change their language, even when Christian leaders reject it and have asked them nicely, gently, patiently and fairly, to either make a change or simply shut down their over-heated rhetoric.

EricMH’s claims here fit with the DI’s admonitions to be relentless in their defense of “ID as a strictly scientific theory”. The problem arises when they are unapologetic about it, even to other religious believers. That kind of language and attitude unfortunately just doesn’t suit scholarship or academic research in teams, like what anyone familiar with working in a university would understand. Since he has given up the opportunity to join the “mainstream science” community by insisting that “ID theory is strictly scientific”, as opposed to really being “theistic science apologetics”, and entering the DI’s payroll via the new Bradley Center, it’s like Dembski’s “Waterloo” moment playing on re-run over and over again.

“Dogmatic opponents of design who demanded the Center be shut down have met their Waterloo. Baylor University is to be commended for remaining strong in the face of intolerant assaults on freedom of thought and expression.” - Dembski (For more, see here: etmcmull - Baylor U. Demotes Intellegent Design Theorist)

Here in Dembski’s “Waterloo moment” we see again what is rampant throughout the history of the IDM; the attempt to mask “Intelligent Design theory” with the term “design”, as if “design theory”, “design thinking” and “design history” are somehow not allowed to be studied. As if they are “persecuted” by “dogmatic opponents.” Yet “design” is both allowed to be studied and even welcomed, if done properly, working within the field, rather than trying to change it into something it’s not. What is not allowed, is “theistic science” parading as “natural science”, which unfortunately is the DI’s calling card.

If an IDst can’t or won’t openly acknowledge that “human design”, which is already well-established in “design theory” (which IDists have tried to co-opt as their own; this won’t succeed, as every “real design theorist” I’ve spoken with rejects ID theory), along with “design thinking” and “design history”, differs fundamentally from a “theistic science” theory about “Divine Design” that won’t identify the (engineering analogy by Thaxton, Bradley & Olsen) “Intelligent Designer” as part of the supposedly “strictly scientific” theory, then in my view that person simply isn’t credible or being honest in public. If they try to promote “design universalism”, as EricMH does, at a public university, then they should be denied a place at the dialogue table. The double-talking between “human design” and “Divine Design” by IDists simply has to stop. There’s no other way around this, yet here we see a PhD in computer and electrical engineering trying to claim that “humans are intelligent designers”, as if the DI’s ID theory encompasses vast realms of human-social thought, in addition to the “primarily in biology” approach as Dembski clarified. This illustrates the sad reality that for IDists trained by the DISP, no boundary or limit to IDism is possible, which is why “ID theory” is appropriately labelled as “design universalism”.

Yet no, I won’t “accuse” EricMH of anything here and instead wish him well and healing from the persecution complex that he experienced at DISP. It took me a couple of years to sort through what had happened at that event, which was a kind of “ideological shock”. May God help EricMH with his humility, given the over-the-top “revolutionary” claims he is making, combined with accusations of “persecution” as witnessed here in this thread. Otherwise, all further stubborn defense of IDist ideology as “Intelligent Design science” will likely lead to frustration. It’s not “persecution”, but rather protection of academic integrity, just as Jo Ann Gora at Ball State realized, leading her to made the right decision and remove the “wedge-attempt” at her university.

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Mere natural selection is not Darwin’s idea. That animals can adapt to selection is uncontroversial, that is the whole basis of animal breeding that Darwin draws upon for his argument.

The crucial point is that such selection can build up to significant new functionality. These adaptation examples do not demonstrate the point, but it is implied that they do.

No, I’m correct. The original researcher glued moths to trees. Supposedly, follow up research has been able to replicate the original results, but the original study is the one I was taught in school, and it is known to be a staged experiment.

This is what I thought as well, but Ewert’s research and my own investigation and reading shows this is not true.

From all my reading, the only mechanisms I’ve seen mentioned are gene duplication and random mutation. These mechanisms are not sufficient to generate new genes.

In mainstream information theory there is the data processing inequality for Shannon mutual information, and Levin’s law of independence conservation for algorithmic mutual information.

Then, within ID theory, there is Dembski’s conservation of active information, Ewert’s conservation of algorithmic specified complexity, and Nemati and I recently derived a conservation of algorithmic specified complexity under stochastic processing. I’ve also published an algorithmic information theory bound on algorithmic novelty generation.

Additionally, the mathematics of these laws are based upon other well established information theory and computational identities, such as Gibb’s inequality, uncomputability of Kolmogorov complexity, the halting problem, and the Kraft inequality, which are all information limits of one sort or another.

The mathematical aspect is very well established, and the fact this is so widely denied by those who should know better, is quite incredible to me.

I am happy to discuss this particular point further, since I have most expertise in this area, and have a couple publications.

Bottom line is it is mathematically provable that natural processes cannot generate complex specified information. This we know with absolute certainty.

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It was the follow-up I was referring to.

Also known as ‘an experiment’. The follow-up work was more rigorous, but the conclusions of the original work was correct. And what does any of this have to do with ID?

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Then the rigorous work should be taught, not the staged experiment. Just because a conclusion may be right does not post hoc validate inappropriate methodology.

That’s a weird standard. By that standard, any theory questioning the status quo is justly persecuted. In which case, all scientific progress would stop, or at least go underground, as most progress is created by rejecting the status quo.

Ironically, by that standard we would not even have science as we know it today, which would have perished with the Catholic Church rejecting Galileo’s work for questioning the status quo!

A short follow-up note to clarify, in case the terms aren’t familiar, since I didn’t provide a definition of “persecution complex”. It may be that EricMH is unaware that this is actually “a thing” (so at least he now doesn’t have to trust my word about it anymore, since the condition is actually already articulated by others).

Also known as a “persecutory delusion”:

This is in no way meant offensively, but rather as apt because of the DI’s regular and on-going conflation of “human design” with “Divine Design”. If the DI and folks like EricMH on its payroll would only distinguish these two things, they would realize that they are completely free to study “design theory”, “design thinking” and “design history”, without any expectation of persecution at all.

One might thus ask EricMH: if he was really doing “design theory”, “design thinking” or “design history”, instead of being a “proponent” of “Intelligent Design theory”, what difference does he think this would make?

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No, the situation was handled correctly by Jo Ann Gora. You continue to call it “persecution”, while others see it as the proper result.

Please note: the views you express here about science that “all scientific progress would stop, or at least go underground” aren’t even in the ballpark of reasonable. People challenge the “status quo” all the time as part of scientific research. They don’t, however, try to entirely change the rules of the game, like the IDM insists is needed and justified.

We’ll have to disagree about this, EricMH, it seems (you called the self-fulfilling prophecy of IDist persecution as “the best calling card for ID [theory]”), because that’s all the time I have to respond to the persecution complex of IDists these days.

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A few things to consider is that the same process for adaptation is the same process for evolution. Adaptation is evolution. It’s the beginning of a change in a species. Over various periods of time these small changes result in completely different ecological niches which will continue to affect more and more adaptations and over a longer period of time someone can look back at these changes and see the evolution of a species into subspecies and eventually into new species and possibly even new genre and families.

I’m under the impression the whole idea about evolution through the development of a fetus in various stages has not been taught since the 90s. Science corrects itself often which is why we can trust in it.

The tree of life is just a metaphor. It’s a good one too. But it is still just a metaphor and not a scientific rendering but an artistic rendering of a scientific narrative.

As for the mathematics of evolution there are mathematicians that say it proves evolution. It’s not the aspects I know much about but indononowntjere are highly qualified mathematicians that teaches that evolution is definitely possible.

A side note is that the fossil record is often confusing to non scientifically inclined people because they don’t understand how a fossil of a knee can matter so much and ect…

Ultimately, any science that is questionable under evolution is still well beyond the scientific evidence for ID. ID is used as a gap filler and not a scientific explanation despite its attempt at being more than what it is.

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Let’s be clear here. Intelligent design is very much not an attack on evolution – but by studying ID you learned to attack this (completely banal) example of evolution, one that has nothing to do with intelligence or design. Is that a correct summary of the situation?

Now, if you really want to get into this, okay… First, you’re saying the followup work, which was published in 2012, should have been taught to you instead of the original studies. When did you study evolution, at what level, and where? Second, which studies have you read? What did you find inappropriate in their methodology (without going back to Jonathan Wells)?

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That does not appear to include neutral drift, which is not ‘random mutation’ in the Darwinian sense as IDists typically use it.

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