This has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.
What science? What on God’s green Earth are you talking about?
Is making stuff up contagious? This again has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote, and makes up stuff I didn’t say.
You’re making the identification of Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world into some sort of metaphor when there is no indication that is the case. “Slain from the foundation of the world”, as other translations have it, points to before Adam, not to Adam, as the foundation of the world was when God turned “tohu wa-bohu” into order.
I read through those four times and there’s nothing in it I even mentioned. Are you certain you were responding to me?
St Roymond,
you are trying to make the claim that Christ was human before the creation of the world…here is a quote directly from you regarding this claim…
The Bible does not make that claim, it says Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Since God s God cannot be slain, then Jesus already had an aspect that could be slain, and that aspect had to be human because angels cannot be slain either.
You are going to have to better explain your position above.
What we do know is that we are told very clearly by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 2:6-8
Paul is not referencing Christ as being lower than God prior to the incarnation…Paul is very specifically saying that God lowered himself, shed himself of his power and authority, became a simple man and lived among us choosing not to exercise any of that authority and power of his own accord…to the point of death.
This does not in any way make the claim Christ was not God…we know its the opposite. I sense that you accept this theology, however, they way you write it appears a bit confused and even misleading.
You’re confusing time and eternity. That Jesus did not take on a human body in time has nothing to do with Who/what He was/is in eternity. That He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the word requires that there be some way in which He could be legitimately called “slain”, and that is easily explained from the pre-Incarnation appearances of Christ in the Old Testament, ‘already’ in a human body from the point of view of time.
I think that in God the decision to create the world goes along with the decision to create humankind and order human beings to share divine life, i.e.: the life the three divine Persons share, by freely deciding to love God.
And to make this possible, the Holy Trinity decided that the Word became flesh as well.
And God considered also the option that human beings reject God’s love and sin. And for this case decided to let the sinners on earth, give them opportunity to repent, and redeem them.
And to make this possible, the Holy Trinity decided that the incarnate Word (“the Lamb”) becomes slain.
Accordingly, from the eternity perspective of God, the three decisions of creation, incarnation, and redemption, although different, they go together.
In summary: Jesus is always “Plan A”, from prior to “Light! BE!”
In this point I disagree:
God considered very well the possibility that we humans would not sin, otherwise God would have created us determined to sin, and this is unfitting to God’s goodness.
And God created a world (the world we live in) that is good for both possibilities:
The case that we humans do sin, and the alternative case that we humans do not sin.
I just deleted a bunch of your petty arguing and blatant violations of our dialogue guidelines. I’m not going to bother sending you messages explaining each one. Please review the following:
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@NickolaosPappas do not argue with people who are stating basic Christian doctrines. You have every right to not accept them, but the point of this website is not to convince people the Bible is not inspired or the creeds are wrong.
@St.Roymond stop telling other people what they believe or that they are not Christian. The purpose of this website is not to evaluate anyone’s salvation status.
Both of you need to stop interacting with each other if you cannot respond to one another like mature and civil adults. Go to your preferences, click on users, and add each other to the ignored list.
If you think someone else is violating the guidelines, flag the post, and the moderators will deal with it. Personal attacks do nothing to advance the general conversation and do nothing to convince someone else to change their mind. They are totally worthless as far as dialogue goes.
I personally don’t think there was any Christ before his birth. There was the word, which became flesh and that flesh is Christ. I don’t think Jesus existed until he was conceived and born.
Every time someone speaks with “the Lord” and yet the text tells us it was a man. I think the encounter between Abraham and the three visitors is both the clearest and most confusing at the same time since it’s not at all clear in the text whether there are three or just one but it is very clear that Abraham is talking to the Lord.
Then there’s the account of Jacob wrestling with God.
And if you get down into grammar, there are numerous instances of “the angel of the Lord” where the “of” is not clear as to whether it means “the angel from the Lord” or “the angel who is the Lord”.
What’s interesting is that three times He came as a man (to Abraham and Sarah; to Jacob at Peniel; and with Shadrach, Meshcech, and Abednego), four times as an angel (to Hagar; to Abraham at Mount Moriah; to Gideon; and to Samson’s parents) – though keep in mind that “angel” is “messenger” – and once in a burning that did not consume a bush. If as some have done the “angel” is equated to the “man”, then there are seven “Signs” of the Incarnation before it happened in history (remembering that seven is a number standing for holiness and purity); if you take it as three mixed with four, where mixing points to multiplication, then you have the number twelve which stands for the whole of God’s people. Then there’s that solitary appearance in/with the bush that didn’t burn, which has been taken as indicating God’s unity.
Sin has power over people. But it is not a power itself. More a principal. It cannot exist independently of free-willed beings in opposition to God. How, then can it be a true power?
Sin did not exist alongside God from the beginning. I never said that. I said that sin “was” as soon as a free-willed being opposed God.
How can you have free will without an evil option in the first place?
What you are saying is that free wille coated the time Satan rebelled . I repeat again that which is common sense FREE WILL CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT AN OPOSITE CHOISEM YOU CANNOT CHOOSE BETWEEN GOOD AND LESS GOD.
But now you seem to be saying sin was there with God since the beginning? If it didn’t “come about” when a living being chose to defy God, then it must have been created… And that has some implications.
Which is fine by me. I have come in terms with it . Maybe I’m wrong but think about it
The devil is given attributes similar to God but Christians nowadays internet as “God allows him”. The same God who expelled him from his presence is now allowing him tempting his children? It doesn’t make sense to me.
So since the adversary is the embodiment of sin itself the battle still rages on.
I don’t have decided what role Jesus ressurection played and Im in conflict with some things he said which I find difficult to accept ,but in dew time I will find the interpretation of it
Both options cannot be equally good. Either one is good and the other “less” good .
Besides choosing to rebel against God isn’t neither .
And again if free will preexisted then evil must have too. If not we would all have chosen between good and less good but that ain’t the case . Reminding you that God knew all this would happen yet “chose” I guess to let it because who knows why. I find it hard to believe the cosmic judge a beign beyond any understanding put the emotions of his creation before him like “Yeah let him rebel I won’t change that. I don’t want to hurt his feelings. I don’t want to have robots” yet he has angels worshiping him day and night.