That’s a phenomenon I’ve observed in several people including myself. It doesn’t really make sense to people unless they’ve experienced or at least witnessed it.
I wasn’t actually talking about Adam, but the Orthodox view is that the Fall wasn’t primarily about sin, as in breaking a rule, it was a step in a direction farther from God rather than closer. Thus communion with God was broken, and death was the result that God had warned them about – it wasn’t a punishment.
This video does a good though quick job of explaining it:
It’s not a matter of “fault”, it’s a matter of direction: we can move towards God, or we can move away. That we can’t help doing things that move us away from God still does harm to us spiritually.
I’m coming to see just how screwed up Western theology is thanks to Augustine and Ambrose and others with their emphasis on rules and sins. It skews our understanding of how God regards us, perhaps best exemplified by the sermon “Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God” by Jonathon Edwards and preachers who go even farther and say that God enjoys punishing sinners – something I consider to be projection by people who like condemning others.
So Christ’s death is only meaningless if things are viewed from a rules/condemnation model rather than a freedom/relationship model.
I was a lifeguard for seven years or so off and on, and something that impacted the routine of sitting in an elevated chair and paying attention was that little kids have a propensity to get exuberant, and that exuberance tends to result in misbehavior, and misbehavior can result in injury. That propensity didn’t excuse their behavior, so when injury did happen it was their fault because it is possible to control that propensity as shown by the kids who didn’t misbehave.
Now what’s interesting here is that if a little kid misbehaved and got hurt, the little kid was 100% responsible, but the lifeguards on duty were also each 100% responsible because despite anyone’s propensity to misbehave, it was out job to make sure that no one did so. So contrary to the “if we have a propensity then it’s not our fault” premise goes out the window – it can be our fault even if it’s someone else’s propensity.
For what it’s worth, any military veterans understand this.
And this is where Doctrine loses its way. It becomes callous and judgmental. Not only is humanity burdened with sin, it is because we are too weak to overcome the innate human flaw. It shows disdain not love.
“You should have done better!”
Like some sort of school report.
“Didn’t try hard enogh!”
If you get told that often enough you just give up trying at all!
And no sanctimonious Christian doctrine is going to justify it or repair it.
Richard
- “Innate?” Gee, do you suppose it’s genetic? I hope not.
- I’m currently fighting a very strong desire to get a tattoo on my forehead.
- “Free Will Sucks! I had to get this tattoo!”
2 Likes
Shouldn’t that be “Determinism sucks! I had to get this tatoo!”
I told this joke years ago on this forum … but it bears repeating here.
A Calvinist and an Arminian were happily enjoying lunch together and arguing philosophy in an upper room when, unbeknownst to both of them, a workman came and removed the stairway up to the door. They both went to leave and both fell to the ground below. The Arminian picked himself up, dusted himself off, and declared “Whew! I’ll really have to be more careful next time!” The Calvinist picked himself up, dusted himself off, and remarked “Whew! - I’m glad that’s over and done with!”
3 Likes
Free Will Sucks when it fails to prevent a fall.
3 Likes
- I bounced my way through a short video and came across a reference to Annaka Harris’ Conscious: A Brief Guide to the Fundamental Mystery of the Mind, then watched two Youtube videos–one very brief intro by Annaka to her book and a longer one: Free will is an illusion | Annaka Harris and Lex Fridman, Both of which, I found interesting.
- Then, not more than 10 minutes later, I went to Amazon because I finally talked myself into ordering the book. And when I did, I discovered:
- Ackkk!!!
- Colour me “informed”!
4 Likes
A similar extended version:
4 Likes
And of course my standard refrain:
“We have to believe in free will, we have no choice.” I.B. Singer
1 Like
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I almost got made to hand out to friends:
“Life sucks” in large letters, then underneath it in letters a third that size,
“But it can get worse”.
2 Likes
Reminds me of the “Stuff” happens, then you die.
1 Like
- In my 20’s, I first heard about the surgical procedure that cut through the Corpus Callosum in order to treat certain types of epileptic seizures. My college classroom introduction to the post-surgical findings and research was brief.
- [The Unsettling Truth about Human Consciousness | The Split Brain experiment that broke neuroscience](https://n order to treat certain types of epileptic seizures)
- Listening to Annaka Harris’ interviews introduced me to a marvelous phenomenon, heretofore unknown to me. Searching Youtube, I found this: Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist
3 Likes
I don’t think it is either.
But the general consensus seems to be that it is somehow inbred, which makes it something we have to positively work against.
I think even that is going too far. The whole notion that we are somehow tainted or adversely made goes against everything I believe about God.
What’s the point in making a creation with free will and then biasing in one direction or another? The whole idea is for us to want to follow Him, not to be coerced.
Richard
1 Like
‘Love your neighbor as yourself’ – maybe the original ‘bias’ was merely self-preservation, like feeding yourself?
I think I’ve mentioned before the idea that every goal humans have is a distorted version of something God wants for us, and the distortion is that we want to take shortcuts. That’s evident right from the start: God intended us to know the difference between good and evil/catastrophe, but Eve and Adam tried to take a shortcut rather than wait on God’s timing.
Since when was self preservation a sin?
Sometimes, it seems, we can overthink stuff.
I don’t know, but it seems people get obsessed with the beginning and the ending of Scripture and sort of overlook the massive bit in the middle.
Richard
I like very much the video and conclude that we find common ground in the following points:
-
“God made us for eternal life with him, which is only something we can receive by being united with Him.”
-
The Fall happened because a human being called to eternal life took a first step in a direction farther from God, and thus the communion with God was broken.
-
This notwithstanding, God in his mercy wants that we reach eternal life and let us on earth as an opportunity to repent and come again to the communion with God.
-
On the other hand, “our separation from God brought death into the world. This led to fear, and anxiety, and insecurity; to a biological existence driven by the desire to stay alive rather than to live for others.”
“Even worse, our sin has consequences for the world; because we live in the world and God put the world in our care. So things are upended both internally and externally, leading to a never ending cycle of pain, sin and death.” -
Although after the Fall our state on earth is “flawed” by death, illness and the pursuit of selfish interests (concupiscence), these flaws do not come from “God’s wrath”, but should rather be considered circumstances our Father God uses to stimulate us to struggle for getting close to Him.
Before I continue commenting I would be thankful to know whether you agree to these 5 points above.
It would be the means selected for self-preservation that could constitute sin; that humans tend to be impatient and want means that will bring immediate results would constitute a tendency to sin.
2 Likes
Yes. An Orthodox theologian I listened to recently noted that in the Garden, Adam and Eve were neither mortal nor immortal yet; that would come only once they had demonstrated loyalty or disloyalty.
Yes. The interesting thing, though, is that it may very well be the case that Eve and Adam thought they were taking a step closer to God by becoming more like Him.
This is a way is true of all sin: the desire behind any sin is to have something God means us to have, whether a good home or happiness or riches or long life; the problem arises not from the ends we seek but from the means we choose to reach them.
Jesus spoke of a wide road versus a narrow road, but the comparison could also be between a short road and a long road, where the long road is the one God leads us on and the short road is the one we innately prefer.
Given #1, I’d say this isn’t accurate: eternal life (at least as conceived in the West) is not the goal but a byproduct of the actual goal which is fellowship with God.
I’m tempted to say that sin brought pointless death into the world. For the warning that they would die to have any meaning they must have known what death was, which they would have only known if they’d observed death happening when predator killed prey. Given that, death was part of Creation, but only meaningful death. Growing old or getting sick and injured would be pointless ways to death. And the death that was brought tipped them off the balance of mortal/immortal, dumping them on the mortal side.
Sure.
1 Like