I acknowledge there is a mystery in the interface between God’s omnitemporality and our time-boundedness. I don’t know how it works but I know that it works. What kind of confronting do you think you are demanding?
And? Just because his omniscience is not mentioned does not mean I deny it! Good grief. Does my not mentioning all of his other attributes mean I don’t ‘claim them’?
What is all about power and control? What are you talking about? (Maybe you should be talking to @mitchellmckain – he talks a lot about power and control.)
You never do what? Never forget or never read your Bible? At your age, I will definitely disbelieve the former, and I can certainly believe the later based on some of the things you say!
Maybe John 17 isn’t in your Bible anymore. If it is, will you please highlight all the things you disbelieve in it? There are quite a few, unless you have cut them out or have already highlighted them in black marker. If you don’t want to, I could do it for you (I won’t use black marker ; - ).
You are. You are claiming God is controlling the minutia. And as such He has ultimate power
Then you do not understand what they mean. All-knowing is not the same as control. God can know what you are going to do but that does not mean He dictates…everything.
Your view of providence is ultimate control and power with everything being manipulated by God (supposedly for our benefit)
I checked it when you told me to, not that i had to read it to remember what it basically said. And I fail to see the relevance… It has nothing to do with disagreeing with any of it. Just tell me what you think it means.
Yes Jesus is praying for His disciples and all those who will become them. So what? What has it to do with what you are talking about? What has it to do with God being biased towards Christians and ignoring everyone else to the degree that He doesn’t even care if they die or not!. Not a hair is lost? But only if you are a Christian! Rubbish!
To answer this question, it seems to me crucial to realize, first of all, that
we sinners are on earth because of God’s mercy:
Got let us on earth (instead of sending us “to join the devil and his angels”) to give us opportunity to repent, reach salvation, and share eternal divine life.
So, if God let us on earth in the “flawed state” we are (i.e.: submitted to illness, death, and concupiscence), it is because it is convenient to the aim of our salvation, after all.
Certainly, it is not at all always patent (and in this sense it is a mystery) how the “flawed state” ruled by “the instinctive interests” characteristics of “natural selection” may be convenient in order “to love the others as you love yourself” (the single sentence where God’s Word is summed up).
However, one could say that “one of the reasons for learning about Darwinian evolution is as an object lesson in how not to set up our values and social lives.”
If God cared so much about sin He would not offer free forgiveness!
That forgiveness is for our beneifit not His. It is us who want justice. it is us who demand restoration. It is us who claim that man can corrupt the human soul. ( I could say it is you, but you are not alone.)
God offers a free pardon and instead of just saying Yippee you turn it into burdon and obligation. It is free grace not obligation.
The only reason you have to believe it is for your own peace of mind, not because it somehow validates it. God does not need validation. He does not demand validation. He has forgiven you! And everybody else.
Do you believe man landed on the moon? Does it change anything if you do not? It happened.
Jesus died for our sins. it happened!
Jesus canceled any notion of Original sin even before it was formulated. God does not want you to dwell on your sins Or anyone else’s!
Just get on and live in the freedom that nothing you can do will alienate you from God because He has forgiven you!
Not exclusively or even initially – it is obvious you overlook the meaning of Hebrews 12:2 in your armchair theologizing.
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2
Whose joy? His. What is that joy? We are, God’s children and his siblings and joint heirs if we belong to him.
More from the armchair theologian. It is difficult for the dead to do much demanding.
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins… Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:1-9
I am not interested in your views of Scripture. They are your views, you are obviously entitled to them. But your views are not necessarily correct any more than mine are.
I do not insist you believe as I do, kindly reciprocate
I am not going to argue Scripture with you. You do not respect me at all and will claim that I have the wrong understanding.
If you can do this to plain English there is no telling what you can infer from Scripture.
We all know that the “dead” in New Testament Theology is spiritual not physical so your statement is a deliberate misunderstanding to make a point (badly)
Huh. If you might have read earlier (how did you miss it?), I agree:
That means it is past tense.
Huh, again. Do you know of any dead folks doing any demanding? Why is that a problem with my English? The issue is elsewhere.
So what makes you think the spiritually dead even want to do any demanding, even if you want to presume without reason that they can? (Demand from a God they don’t believe in?) Maybe what’s badly is reasoned.
The call for justice has nothing to do with faith, or God, or spirituality. It is the human response to hurt. There must be a reason, or a culprit, and then some sort of restitution.
But that is everything that forgiveness isn’t.
Forgiveness rejects any sort of blame or consequence. It is as if it never happened.
Your view does not do that. It puts everything fair and square at God’s feet. He did it. But we have no means of reparation to God (and the claim that He does so much for us is no comfort to those who only see the suffering) So yes the dead as you call them can only see the hurt and the suffering because they are blind to God’s grace and mercy.(and benevolence). And nothing you can say will change that, you just encourage it by saying God is in complete control. So they hate God because of what you claim instead of loving Him.
I don’t want to be right. I only want to be allowed to believe what I wish. without judgment or condemnation. I can disapprove or even abhor your view but that does not mean you are not allowed to have it.
You seem to be under the illusion that if I see it the way you do I will agree. No.
I do see what you see. I even think I know why you believe what you do, but I still disagree. It applies here and it applies to evolution. I understand more than you think I just disagree with your views. And that is both my right and yours, to disagree.
However, I am not convinced that you see, or even can conceive the existence, of what I believe. I hope that I am wrong about this…
Thus, with even more reason it will be useless to repeat it in this thread!
I would like to propose the following:
Before commenting again here, you post some points where you consider to find common ground with other frequent posters in the thread.
If you find none, then it will be impossible to hold any productive discussion.
There are many more, so, even if I am unique on this forum I am not unique Worldwide.
Orignal Sin is a false Doctrine. Paul did not beleive it let alone preach it. It is derived by misreading Paul who was talking about the Law and Sin and not some pandemic disease.
Sin cannot be transmitted. it as no substance or natural existence. It certainly cannot be transmitted by some sort of indemic DNA code.
The Scriptures deny it. Specifically Jeremiah & Ezekiel
Jer 31 29“In those days people will no longer say,
‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.
Sin cannot be transmitted from father to son let alone from Adam (even if he existed in the form of Genesis 3)
Adam was,at best, the Original sinner, as in the first one
Adam also provided the means of sin by eating the fruit of understanding. Adam & Eve excluded themselves from Eden by losing their innocence.
And finally God cancelled any notion of continuing sin by forgiveness through the death of His son Christ.
If you don’t want to, I could do it for you (I won’t use black marker ; - ).