If the question hinges on God’s omnipotence, than we have to wonder why salvation for everyone has not been carried out already? and if it is unconditional, why than did Christ say we must repent (a condition that involves everything pertinent to human act and thought)?
The question revolves around what we as human being are and do - it is within this context that we are astonished at the extent of God’s mercy.
I think you’ve already agreed with @Dale that “resembling” or being “like” the Son of God isn’t the same as being the Son of God.
“When Christ appears” in 1 John refers to Jesus’ resurrection from the dead and return to Earth. Those things are future occurrences from the perspective of Genesis. “We shall see him as he is” is certainly a future event from John’s perspective. It’s only after Christ appears that we, meaning everyone, will see him as he is. Whatever existence he had prior to incarnation, he was not yet the resurrected and glorified Christ, because that happened within history. (That’s the paradox – that the eternal God should enter time.) Melchizedek didn’t behold Jesus in heaven.
The author of Hebrews is making a metaphorical comparison between Melchizedek’s priesthood and Christ’s priesthood. Even in Ps. 110 – You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek – the emphasis is comparing the priestly order that Melchizedek established prior to the Levitical priesthood and the priestly status of Christ, who was not of the tribe of Levi. What lasts forever is the priestly order of Melchizedek, not the translated and resurrected body of Melchizedek.
Right. They all died, yet they live forever in God’s presence. The same could be said of many. The point of Hebrews is that the sort of priesthood Melchizedek represents will last forever in the person of Christ. There is no hint in the text that Melchizedek himself was taken directly into heaven.
Notice how the words “like” and “resembling” pop up? It’s a metaphorical comparison. Melchizedek is like Jesus, similar to Jesus, etc. That’s a clue that the comparison isn’t exactly literal.
Abraham also pleased God, and he died.
You’re welcome, but you didn’t address the main objections. The idea that Melchizedek was specially created and a contemporary of Adam is pure speculation. The notion that Melchizedek was “sinless” is also groundless, as is Melchizedek appearing from heaven to Abraham. If you assert Melchizedek was a literal human being, then the only evidence we have from Genesis is that he was human when he met Abraham. I’m sorry. The whole thing is just too far-fetched for me.
Right. I assume you choose 44,000 BP because that is when human creativity reached full flower, so to speak. I place the “moral” breakthrough earlier, around 75-65,000 BP, because of a confluence of language, metaphoric thought (full symbolicity), and brain development that started around ~100,000 BP and continued until ~30,000 BP at the latest. Basically, during that time the human brain was “rewired” as the cerebellum expanded and created new neural networks. The midpoint of that trajectory is 65,000 BP. The symbolic and moral breakthroughs logically follow and depend upon the language breakthrough. The final step of the process coincides with the appearance of the “modern” human brain. The result was an explosion of novelty and creativity that was lacking in the archaeological record for millions of years prior. People by 40,000 years ago were no different than those of us alive today. I explain in greater detail here:
@AntoineSuarez places the “fall” and appearance of “original sin”/propensity to sin no earlier than 12,000 years ago and no later than 5,000 years ago.
My first question is how you envision original sin (propensity to sin) spreading through the population. Is it hereditary, genealogical, cultural? Either way, Tasmania was isolated around 14,000 years ago and remained that way until European explorers stumbled upon the place in the 16th century. (K. Lambeck and J. Chappell, “Sea Level Change Through the Last Glacial Cycle,” Science 292 (5517): 6798-8 (2001). doi: 10.1126/science.1059549). If the earliest date you propose is 12,000 years ago, “sin” couldn’t have made its way to Tasmania by any “process” except divine intervention, since it was isolated 2,000 years before your earliest proposed date. Were the islanders unaffected by original sin until the Europeans arrived to “infect” them? This makes no sense. You can read more here.
The problem you have is that hunter-gatherer societies 30,000 years ago are no different than those 15,000 years ago or 1500 years ago. Moral codes existed in oral form long before civilization, “courts,” and writing appeared.
People crossed the land bridge into North America around 15,000 years ago. By the time the Spanish arrived in what is now New Mexico, the peoples along the Rio Grande had been farming and building houses and settlements for a thousand years. To the north and east, the Comanche lived as nomadic hunter-gatherers without permanent dwellings, which is no different than most of the human population 30,000 years ago.
Despite the fact that Neolithic people and some modern cultures don’t have written language or formal “courts” of law, I can assure you all of these peoples had/have moral codes, religious rituals, spiritual beliefs, and a “system” of justice/arbitrating disputes. In tribal cultures, this typically involves bringing the situation before the elders of the community or kinship group. I don’t doubt all of that was happening long before 12,000 years ago, let alone as recently as 5,000 years ago.
Actually, I picked 44,000 BP because that’s the radiocarbon dating of “the Lebombo bone”. Antoine likes 12,000 BP because he believes the ability to form contracts and take somebody to court is important. I prefer my date because I place value on the ability to express concepts formed inside a skull with marks–such as are on the Lebombo bone"–outside of the skull represent, for me, a substantial advance over grunts, barks, and a wrestling match.
Found your paper: “Adam as archetype” and am reading it now.
Melchizedek is a true human being and a High Priest.
Melchizedek is NOT the Son of God.
Melchizedek is like the Son of God.
On the basis of 1 John 3:2 I conclude that the High Priest Melchizedek mentioned in Genesis 14:18–20, Psalm 110, and Hebrews 7, is a true human being, who is already enjoying the immediate vision of God.
If I understand well, you “have no problem with this”.
But then it is rather obvious that:
Melchizedek was a true human being dwelling in heaven beyond space and time.
Even if you have no strong opinion, I would be pleased to know whether you have any problem with this last statement.
You speak in religious language which does not portray the reality, explain anything, or describe the processes involved. You need to couple your religious language with the processes at work in support of your argument. Your error is in thinking that a baby or a toddler can sin without a consciousness of self. Without a self, there is no discernment. Without discernment there is no choosing between good and evil, therefore, no sin. You say babies are not aware of being “morally accountable.” Babies are unaware of their “selves” and so cannot be “self-ish,” only needy, having their needs fulfilled by crying.
“Sinful humanity” and “sinful propensities” means what? Where do those phrases come from? What biological processes do they describe? I say: “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” in the fetus’s development. The only mental trait that precedes self-consciousness in ontogeny or phylogeny is instinct. Instinct is reflexive and does not require conscious decisions, again, no sin, no need for redemption.
“If not-yet-conscious infants “in need of redemption” die, they are NOT damned to hell.”
I would say they are aware but not self-conscious.They are not damned to hell because they are NOT in need of redemption. They have done nothing “wrong” to deserve being damned to hell
"At that time, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
He called a child, set him in front of them, and said, “I tell you this: unless you turn around and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven. Let a man humble himself until he is like this child, and he will be the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. Whoever receives one such child in my name, receives me. But if a man is a cause of stumbling to one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.”
Matthew 19:13-14 They brought children for him to lay his hands on them with prayer. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not try to stop them; for the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.”
Notice that the children don’t speak in these passages. Speaking is a sign of self-consciousness.
I am not sure of your tenses, “is a true human being…”, on the one hand, and “was a true human being…”, on the other. Since I already said that I tended not ro think of him as an apparition, he would not have already been dwelling beyond space and time. Certainly he is now. I’m sorry, but this seems to be more than bordering on the pedantic.
Melchizedek is Genesis’ pastoral archetype. He is not a real person (he is not counted among the kings in the battle). There is no temple, priesthood or written law in pastoral Genesis. Melchizedek’s compound name is the key to his significance. He is a priest and a king because (in the absence of a temple, priesthood or written Law) he has righteousness written on his heart. He is priest and warrior, a divine king, like Abraham.
“Abraham put his faith in the Lord, and the Lord counted that faith to him as righteousness.” Genesis 15:6
That is why Abraham tithes to him and is blessed by him. Melchizedek is the symbol of Abraham’s religious achievement. He symbolically represents a faithful, righteous man who has written the love of God on his heart, like Melchizedek whose very name indicates he has combined priest (wisdom) and warrior (courage).
In the Rig Veda’s Hymn of Man lines 10-12 pastoral Man is sacrificially dis-membered into the priest and warrior classes of national Man. When you re-member the priest and warrior classes of national Man into one individual, you’ve re-constructed Melchizedek who has righteousness written on his heart.
First there was the Rig Veda from which the Torah gets its structure, then there was Zoroastrianism from where the Torah gets aniconism, and then there is Judaism.
The structure of the Torah is identical to the structure of the Rig Veda’s Hymn of Man’s lines 10-12 dismemberment of pastoral Man (Melchizedek) into national Man (separate priest and warrior classes).
Melchizedek, Abraham and Jesus are all of the Order of Melchizedek. They have the “law” (in Genesis, it is faith and righteousness, not the temple, the priesthood or the written law which do not yet exist) that is written on their hearts.
In my view your criticism is justified if by « doctrinal understanding » one overlooks the fundamental biblical revelation that “God made humankind in the image of God”: This is the reason given in Genesis 9:3,5-6 to establish the foundation of morality and law: Humans ought to respect each other but can use animals for food.
Notice also that “being in the image of God” is possible because God became flesh in Jesus Christ. The incarnation of God is a fact capable of enkindling the highest transformational religious experiences and also the strongest defense of humanity.
What are you sorry about?
Melchizedek is king of Salem and priest of God Most High (Genesis 14:18-19).
A king is not a warrior?
Melchi (king) Zedek priest appears to Abram right after the battle of the kings and blesses him.
Jesus is of the order of Melchizedek because he writes the Law on his heart. That’s the meaning of Melchizedek’s compound name. He’s the pastoral archetype who represents the model of a righteous man in Genesis, like Abraham.
The act of writing the Law (wisdom) on your heart takes courage. Courage is the act of a warrior. Your heart is the receptacle for the Law (wisdom is the role of the priest).
I put wisdom in parentheses because in Genesis there is no written Law.
This is what you didn’t like, though you only got to “warrior.”
It’s an image I put together from Revelations 22:16, 2 Peter 1:19 and Psalm 110:2-4. It’s in the text.
Melchizedek is first and foremost a warrior, born before the daystar like the dew (morning star or Venus).
Revelations 22:16 reads: “I,Jesus… am the bright MORNING STAR."
2 Peter 1:19 reads: “It is like a lamp shining in a dark place until the DAY DAWNS and the light of the MORNING STAR SHINES IN YOUR HEARTS.”
The scepter of your power, the LORD will stretch forth from Zion:
“Rule in the midst of your enemies.
Yours is princely power in the day of your birth, in holy splendor,
before the DAYSTAR, like the DEW, I have begotten you.”
The Lord has sworn, and he will not repent:
“You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.
Combine the passages with the description in Psalm 110:2-4 and view the image that results – countless drops of dew (each a divine king according to the order of Melchizedek) covering the earth waiting to reflect the first light of Jesus “…the bright morning star.”
It’s a beautiful image straight from the text regarding Melchizedek and Jesus.
Thanks Jay and Terry for raising this question, which is very specific to this thread.
The spreading of “the state of original sin” (i.e.: the state of being subject to “propensity to sin” and in need of redemption) is neither hereditary, nor genealogical, nor cultural.
The propensity to sin emerged after the first sin because:
The first sinners (subsumed under the term “Adam and Eve”) lost the original grace that God had given them for mastering the evolved selfish urges, so that these urges became sinful urges (propensity to sin).
God in his mercy decided to keep the sinners on earth, instead of sending them to hell, to give them opportunity to repent and reach salvation.
To facilitate the redemption of all sinners, God “bound everyone over to disobedience”, i.e.: after the first sin, God decided to create all human beings coming into existence lacking the original grace and therefore subject to the propensity to sin. This is what St. Paul states in Romans 11:32.
From this it follows:
All the genetic descendants of the first sinners (“Adam and Eve”) came into existence lacking the original grace, and therefore affected by sinful propensities, that is, in “the state of original sin”.
Millions of Homo sapiens spread all over the world, also those in Tasmania and America, were made by God into the image of God at some point between 12,000 BP and 5,300 BP the same way as God created “Adam and Eve” (i.e.: the first sinners), but lacking original grace, exactly like the genetic descendants of “Adam and Eve”. Thus, these islanders were subject to the sinful tendencies ingrained in the evolved selfish urges from the very beginning of their existence as “human beings in the image of God”, exactly like the Europeans explorers who “stumbled upon the place in the 16th century”.
The islanders in Tasmania and the American natives were already affected by “original sin” when the Europeans explorers arrived.
Indeed, I think that “the ability to form contracts and take somebody to court” is crucial for the Declaration in Genesis 9:3,5-6 to make sense. So I conclude that the creation of humankind in the image of God went along with the emergence of such an ability, i.e. it happened later than 12,000 BP and not later than 5,300 BP .
I fully agree with you in that:
Nonetheless such an ability (however substantial) does not reveal awareness of being accountable toward God and toward humankind, and therefore does not suffice to evidence humankind “in the image of God”, i.e. called and ordered to divine beatitude, and thus capable of rejecting God’s love (“sin”).
In other words, the sapiens creatures which marked the Lebombo bone were undoubtedly smart ones, but were not called and ordered by God to enjoy eternal life in God, very much the same way as we produce AI-devices today that in many respects are smarter than we are, but are not “in the image of God” and ordered to enjoy God in heaven.
I think of the sin of idolatry as giving idol’s God’s rightful place. As spiritual adultery. Can you commit spiritual adultery if you have never committed to the true God in the first place? I think the OT is clear that pagan nations were involved in some wicked stuff in the idol worship. But the harshest critiques of idolatry as a sin are reserved for Israel and their breaking of the covenant.
I don’t believe everyone will choose Christ even when they are standing in front of him, I think some people will choose their own destruction. I think the choices people make in this life to shape our souls and minds will affect their ability to recognize his lordship. Those who are seeking God with the knowledge and insight available to them, even if it is limited by their culture, time, and place, will be better equipped to recognize Jesus for who he is and take the offer of redemption. Those who have pursued their own depravity probably won’t. There is impetus for sharing the gospel in the present because the spiritual insight we gain and grace we experience in this life matters in eternity. But I don’t think people who “never hear” will be denied their chance to respond to truth.
I remember decades ago… reading an article which contained an account (and I have no reason to think that it was apocryphal) about an aboriginal tribesman (I don’t remember what continent, but I think it was Africa) whose tribal beliefs where animistic. He was dissatisfied (shall we say “in his heart”) about the validity of that and felt compelled to set of on his own to find better. He did. He came across Christian missionaries “by chance” and became a Christian.
Then is it supernatural? If God “transformed” all the inhabitants of the earth into a state of sinfulness, that opens a whole new can of worms. How did the “state of original sin” pass from Adam and Eve to their progeny/descendants?
Your first three points rest solely on original grace. Romans 11:32 says nothing of original grace or the propensity to sin. The concepts are imported into the text.
Let’s see if I understand. The genetic descendants of the first sinners (A&E) are affected by sinful propensities (original sin). You place the first sinners somewhere between 12,000-5,300 years ago. So far so good?
By 15,000 years ago, H. sapiens had spread to Tasmania and the Americas, but they weren’t yet “made in the image of God” in your scenario. They also would not be subject to “sinful propensities,” since A&E weren’t yet created or fallen.
Tasmania was isolated from 14,000 years ago until the 17th century. If A&E did not exist prior to 12,000 years ago, then the Tasmanians could not be “genetic descendants of the first sinners.” Then, sometime between 12,000-5,300 years ago, they were "made by God into the image of God … the same way as God created ‘Adam and Eve’ ". So, you are claiming that God transformed the Tasmanians and native Americans into “the image of God,” but lacking original grace and subject to the propensity to sin.
It seems that God bestows his image upon these people just in time for the “fall” of A&E. In addition, they aren’t just lacking original grace. You’ve said multiple times that the propensity to sin did not exist until the first sin, so these people did not have the propensity to sin and did not inherit it from their parents prior to the “fall.” The answer seems to be that God didn’t just transform them into his image, but he transformed them people with a previously unknown propensity to sin (original sin). It’s not enough to say that they lacked original grace. So did everyone prior to A&E. How were the islanders immune to a propensity to sin before the fall, lacking original grace, yet subject to a propensity to sin after the fall? They didn’t require “original grace” to avoid sin prior to A&E’s sin, but after A&E sinned, the lack of original grace proved deadly.
Honestly, I have to say that the whole thing is a “just-so” story that relies upon God’s intervention at every turn. I’ll leave you the last word, since it’s your thread, but I think I’ll bow out here. Thanks for the conversation.
Maybe a few won’t. Who knows? All our speculations of what happens after death are just that – speculations. I have my own opinions about the matter, but I don’t put too much stock into them. Best to hold onto those thoughts lightly.
God transformed the Homosapiens creatures in Tasmania and America into “human beings in the image of God", but lacking original grace and therefore subject to sinful propensities, by the end of the Flood, at the moment referred to in Genesis 9: 5-6, and thus after the fall of “Adam and Eve” (i.e. after the first sin in human history).
These claims are not distinct enough.
As said, the Homo sapiens creatures in Tasmania and America became “people in the image of God” only by the end of the flood, and thus only after the fall of A&E.
Before this moment it is not appropriate to speak about “Tasmanians” and “Native Americans”, as the sapiens creatures then living in Tasmania and America were NOT “people in the image of God” but animals. As such, these sapiens creatures had certainly evolved selfish urges, but these urges could NOT be SINFUL propensities since those creatures were not called and ordered to the eternal vision of God. The evolved selfish urges became propensity to sin only after these sapiens animals were made by God into people in the image of God but lacking original grace.
My “story” relies exclusively upon the God’s intervention reported in Genesis, specially the Genesis’ narrative of the flood as a re-creation of humanity, and the scientific data.
According to my description there are two main moments in God’s creation of humankind in the image of God:
The intervention of God to change the state of several millions of Homo sapiens did happen at the end of the flood, and corresponds to the declaration in Genesis 9:3, 5-6: It is like a new creation of humanity in a state lacking original grace and therefore with ingrained sinful propensities.
At the very beginning before the flood God initiate relationship with only a little community of Homo sapiens, (or a single couple if you prefer). In the beginning of this relationship this primeval community was not affected by sinful propensities. Nonetheless they distrusted God and transgressed God’s revealed will. After their transgression the inherited selfish urges changed into sinful propensities. As a result, when humankind increased in number, sin went viral and a generalized state of corruption and violence spread. This “sinful humanity” (likely some hundreds of thousands) perished in the flood.
In other words, God created in the beginning a beta-version of humanity, which was mostly deleted through the flood. The general release took place at the end of the flood.
I am not interested in “having the last word” but in discussing to the end good objections and comments like yours!
I think we have reached a crucial point in this thread for elucidating what the “state of original” sin is all about, and it would be worth continuing the conversation.
Maybe we can ask tomorrow the Holy Spirit to help us with his gifts of Understanding and Knowledge. In any case I wish you and all the contributors to the thread a happy Pentecost day!
I completely agree with you that “sin” only exists in relation to God’s will and law.
Therefore, it does not make sense to say that the selfish Darwinian mechanisms underpinning evolution are sinful. They rather became sinful propensities only within humans and after “humanity’s transgression of God’s revealed will and breaking of relationship with God.”
Nonetheless we acknowledge today that ALL individuals and peoples (even possibly uncontacted ones) are in the image of God, and deserve the status and dignity of being children of God.
Therefore, we can’t help acknowledging that at some precise moment in history God revealed his love, will, and law to ALL individuals and peoples on earth, and not only to some particular people (Semites, Hebrews, Israel).
I don’t see why it has to be all at the same exact moment. I think most of the speculations trying to pin down exactly what happened are attempts to understand God’s justice with regard to human guilt and innocence. I’m content with the idea that God’s justice is beyond my ability to work out the logic. The Bible says all humans are created in the image of God and that all have sinned and fall short of his glory, standing in need of redemption. I think you can hold those truths tightly and a lot of other guesses about how we got to this state of affairs very loosely.