A.Suarez's Treatment on a Pope's Formulation for Original Sin's Transmission!

(George Brooks) #743


Original Sin, as interpreted by Augustine in Romans 5, is one of the most persistent obstacles to seeing Adam/Eve as figurative or allegorical narratives.

For the usual Creationists, Adam and Eve must be absolutely historical … or Romans 5 doesn’t mean what they think it means.

The fact that millions of Eastern Orthodox Christians have totally dismissed Original Sin, and they do just fine, doesn’t have much traction with Creationists in the Western tradition of Christianity!

(Shawn T Murphy) #744

This is a topic that I have written much about, but have restrained myself. The simple answer is both are partially correct. The Adam and Eve in the Garden are spiritual beings in Paradise (Luke 23:43). Starting in Genesis 4:1 Adam and Eve are now incarcerated as humans around 200,000 years ago. But no one wants to pursue a line of thinking that could unify Christianity.

(Albert Leo) #745


I’ve found this thread, which you started, to be the most productive of the many that I have followed on this forum. If one wanted to distill the most important conclusion to be reached from a review of the entirety of this thread it may be this: _“Just because a particular author has reached a worldview that is unappealing to you, does not mean that he/she has no wisdom to impart”_Richard Dawkins is a good case in point. As @Relates is quick to point out, readers of ‘Selfish Gene’, ’ The God Delusion’, etc. are easily misled as to how a belief in evolution should influence the relationship with our creator, but surprisingly, as you point out, Dawkins does express some insights worthy of careful consieration:

This is a clear statement that human nature is more strongly affected by evolution in the Noosphere (as proposed by Chardin some 50 yrs. earlier) than by Darwinian evolution in the biosphere. But Dawkins failed to grasp the wisdom Chardin was trying to impart._(This is not unusual, most of the readers of his of his original works in French readers struggle.). So Dawkins considered Chardin as a failed scientist, and ended up with, what I see as, a warped worldview.

Antoine, I believe that you and I and Dawkins–all three of us plus many contributors to this Forum–are trying to form a worldview consistent with what we perceive of the Universe “as viewed through a glass darkly”._I think both you and I look forward to an afterlife where we will attain a clear vision of just how magnificent and incomprehensible (to he human mind) our Creator actually is. I admire Dawkins’ mental abilities, but I pity anyone that approaches the end of their earthly existence without the anticipation of an eternal existence with one’s loving Creator.

Be well and God bless!
Al Leo

(Antoine Suarez) #746

To pursue such a line is the aim of this thread.
So let us try to join efforts for this.

What do you mean by this? Please elaborate:

Did Adam and Eve in Paradise have a body?
Were they in need of the Redemption by Jesus Christ?

What do you mean by “incarcerated”?

Why did Adam and Eve become “incarcerated”?

Thanks for contributing!

(Shawn T Murphy) #747

Adam and Eve were two of the ten fallen Elders of Heaven. The 24 Elders are shown on the Menorah and reflected in the human ribcage. We have 24 ribs and 14 of these are attached the sternum (Jesus) while 10 are false or floating ribs. Adam and Eve were two of these false ribs.

Paradise is the spiritual realm where Jesus went after His death on the cross. He went there in spirit and this is where Adam and Eve had once lived in spirit, before they failed their test. Yes, they had a spiritual body.

Adam and Eve were the first two of the fallen angels that wanted to reconcile with their King. The first test that God designed was to use these two as a proxy for all the fallen. The test was in the spiritual realm. But when they failed the test, the second test was implemented, but this time the material world. So, Adam and Eve needed to incarnate into a human body to start their redemption process.

We know from Genes 5 that Adam was not the first to complete his path of redemption. All of these needed to wait in Paradise for the coming of King to open the gates to heaven.

The King came down from Heaven, incarnated as Human to return the 1/3 of Heaven that had been long ago cast out.

I have met very few Christians willing to accept this story and the key tenets of Jesus’ teaching.

  • Not one will be lost! ( Luke 15:4-5 ) and even the Prodigal Son will be celebrated when he finally comes home ( Luke 15:11-32 ) .
  • We must repay our debts to the last farthing ( Matt 5:21-26 ) and become perfect as God created us ( Matthew 5:43-48 ). We need to learn to love our neighbors and eventually our enemies before we have become perfect.
  • While the only way to gain eternal life is by believing the Jesus is the King of Heaven. ( John 3:15 )

We all have the same spiritual ancestry.


Huh? How much time did they serve?

(Antoine Suarez) #749

I totally agree. From Richard Dawkins we can learn two important things:

  • It is impossible to establish at which moment humanity begins exclusively by biological means.

  • “We should not live by Darwinian principles […] one of the reasons for learning about Darwinian evolution is as an object lesson in how not to set up our values and social lives.”

The conclusion of this two insights is that humanity begins at the moment humans become aware they should live respecting each other because they are in God’s Image. This is precisely what Genesis 9:6 tells us.