You and I seem to be in agreement in ascribing "selfishness intrinsic to the mechanism of evolution"--a view which Roger definitely opposes. However, you go on to state that, even with this intrinsic selfishness, A & E had no propensity to sin. How do you define “propensity”? Some synonyms (Google) are: predisposition, proneness, proclivity, readiness. Are you saying that God endowed A & E with sufficient ‘Original Grace’ to overcome this innate selfishness, but not enough to overcome their pride in wanting to become like God? In my opinion, this is an example of how Genesis 2 & 3 is so often misinterpreted. If modern science does nothing else good, it has shown us the Creator of this Universe is enormously powerful and wise–not the jealous deity of the Old Testament. God is not threatened by humankind’s desire to be like Him. He wants us to. It is His will that one of his creatures to advance to the stage of wanting to be an imago Dei. Christians believe that Jesus was the only human to actually achieve this goal, but he encourages us to try. And if there is ever to be ‘Peace on Earth’, we Christians must find ways to get Muslims an Jews (and others) to accept some version of this argument. The long range future of humankind may depend upon it.
Al Leo
Thanks for these remarks, which help me to formulate my position more accurately by distinguishing different cases:
1. The sin of the fallen angels:
Angels are pure spiritual beings and come into existence through a creative act of God without any process of evolution. Therefore they had no “propensity” or “predisposition” to sin due to any “evolutionary mechanism of selfishness”. Notwithstanding they were “limited, finite beings” (in Roger’s wording), and could in principle use their freedom of choice to sin, as some of them did. The sin of these fallen angels consisted in desiring to be like God, that is reach God’s power, majesty and eternal happiness by their own without God’s Grace. This is what properly defines the sin of pride.
Because of their mighty will and intellect angels are not ready to atone after sinning and thus they fell into the stage of eternal damnation (according to Matthew 25:41).
2. The selfishness of lions:
When a male lion takes over a pride he kills the cubs generated by a predecessor male. Such infanticide is caused by “selfishness intrinsic to the mechanism of evolution” to the aim of ensuring the survival of the fittest. It cannot be considered a sin since lions do not share free will and sense of law, and hence are not guilty of sin. Notice that we can state this because there is no evidence that lions have ever enacted laws forbidding infanticide nor constituted courts to judge murderers.
3. The sin of David (2 Samuel 11)
David coveted Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah, and slept with her. Then he managed that Uriah was killed in battle, brought Bathsheba to his house, and she bore him a son. David deliberately decided to sin. Although he shared the “propensity to sin” (“concupiscence”) originating from evolutionary selfishness, he freely lightened the fire of passion within himself. Nonetheless, when the prophet Nathan opened his eyes, David acknowledged his sin and repented: His marvelous Psalm 51 remains as the paradigm of a prayer to ask God for forgiveness.
4. The first sin of humanity (the sin of “Adam and Eve”)
I assume that “Adam and Eve” (that is the primeval human persons) were created by God in the stage of Original Grace: Like the angels they were finite limited beings who could in principle sin but could master any propensity to sin deriving from “evolutionary selfish mechanisms”. In other words their freedom of choice was not impaired by “concupiscence”, contrary to the case of David. Notwithstanding they freely trespassed God’s law seeking “to be like God”. So the first sin in the history of humanity is rather comparable to the sin of the fallen angels than David’s sin: By means of “Original Grace” God created the best conditions in order that “Adam and Eve” (the first human persons) can freely choose to love God instead of loathing Him.
After this first sin “Adam and Eve” deserved in principle eternal damnation (according to Matthew 25:41). Nonetheless God mercifully decided to let them and all human sinners thereafter on earth in the “stage of being in need of Redemption” (“stage of original sin”) so they can be moved to atone. This way all human persons coming into existence after the first sin of humanity lack “Original Grace” and consequently mastery of “evolutionary selfishness”. In other words they come into existence with “propensity to sin” in the same stage as “Adam and Eve” would have been created, if God had not endowed them with “Original Grace”, and “propensity to sin” had been” within Man from the very moment of creation” (according to George’s view).
In summary, the question of “the stage of original sin” is the question of “the stage of Original Grace” after all. In my view “Original Grace” follows from God’s wisdom and justice because it ensures that the first sin originates from a perfectly free human will without any responsibility on the part of God. Once the first sin happened, God’s mercy “invents” the “stage of being in need of Redemption” (“the stage of original sin”) to save the sinners, but the cause of this stage is the first sin. The story of David and his Psalm 51 confirms how wise was God’s decision “to bond all in disobedience to have mercy on all” (Romans 11:32).
I think that the Old Testament, when it is read in the light of the New Testament, also shows that “the Creator of this Universe is enormously wise” and not a “jealous deity” (read for instance Psalms 51 and 104). For the rest I fully agree with what you say: God wants us to be like Him. If one reads Genesis 3 in the light of the New Testament one sees that sin does not consist in “wanting to be like God” but in “wanting to access eternal happiness without God’s help”.
In my view the way we have to go is to promote the acceptance of the foundation of law:
Personhood is inseparably united to humankind; the fundamental rights of a person cannot be established by belonging to a subgroup of humankind, be it by race, religion, nation, stage of development, political class.
Actually this is the very foundation of Christian faith as well.
In my mind I have always turned the idea of original sin around. I believe God created A&E with the free will to chose to worship God or worship themselves. There was no contribution by evolution because this was the result of being made in God’s image. A&E and in fact all other humans always chose to worship their self. This is the sin that God knew would result for their free choice and therefore in His love he provided a means of redemption.
The first humans were tempted into choosing contrary to what God instructed them - we can see that the Gospel shows us Satan is the ruler of the world. The profound teaching in Genesis shows us that we as human beings can be persuaded to choose error and act contrary to God’s will. From this we can see that evil (sin) originated from fallen angels, that God is unaffected by this, but both angles and humans are held responsible for their choices and acts.
The question has a lot to do with understanding the origin of evil and sin (Satan) and the weakness of human beings by falling for lies, and the capacity for humans to repent once they understand their error. They were placed in a space that did not have any worldly problems, so theirs was a simple choice - believe what God said, or listen to a snake (devil). Why they chose the latter seems to me a mystery, as the alternative was eternal life and this is being with God - so what was the temptation? We can discuss this if you wish, but for now I leave it at this.
I think I understand your reasoning, but I fail to see why you use the phrase “original Grace?” Everything God does is in eternity and Grace is unmerited - your phrase may be mistaken for a temporality to Gods Grace.
Apparently we share the same view regarding the stage in which “Adam and Eve” were created: Evolutionary selfishness was not an ingredient in the temptation which led to their Fall (the first sin of human history).
However history and daily evidence show that evolutionary selfish tendencies contribute a lot to the temptations humans undergo: In this respect David’s “concupiscence” is paramount. So I conclude that after the Fall “Adam and Eve” lost the perfect control of the evolutionary selfish tendencies, and also each new human person comes into existence with this “lack of control” and the resulting “propensity to sin”. This is an important ingredient of the so called “stage of original sin”, which at the end of the day is a “stage of being in need of Redemption”.
I would be thankful to know whether you agree to this view as well.
In any case, as you very well say, “God provided a means of Redemption” for the first sin in human history (the sin of “Adam and Eve”) and all the subsequent sins humans do. Part of this “means” is that God has bound everyone over to “the stage of original sin” so that “He may have mercy on them all” (Romans 11:32), as David’s story and his Psalm 51 magnificently demonstrate.
I don’t agree with this. You are saying they had perfect control until they didn’t. You can’t have it both ways. I don’t believe God ever made any human with perfect control. God knew that giving us free will would always result in our own individual “fall” if you want to think of it that way. The A&E story is an illustration of what happens to each of us.
Actually I don’t agree with either statement. My version.
We today we have the free will to chose to worship God or our self. Everyone choses their self. This results in sin which requires a redeemer. Don’t blaim evolution for this.
A&E had the same free will as we do and sinned as we do.
You have to start at free will and not at sin. Sin is the result of free will.
I fully agree that God’s Grace as such is eternal. However humans in “stage of Grace” can lose it if they sin, and recover it if they repent.
To create “Adam and Eve” (the first human persons) God endowed Homo sapiens creatures with free will and sense of law, and conferred them capability to master the selfish evolutionary tendencies inscribed in their genes. Thereby “Adam and Eve” had no “propensity to sin” coming for instance from “concupiscence”. This stage I call “stage of Original Grace” or “Original Righteousness”.
After the Fall (the first sin in human history) “Adam and Eve” lost the capability to master “selfishness intrinsic to the mechanism of evolution” (aleo’s wording) and acquired “propensity to sin”, that is, they remained in “the stage of original sin” and were in “need of Redemption”. All human persons created after the first human sin come into existence in such a stage with “propensity to sin” rooted in evolution.
I am highly interested in your ideas about “what was the temptation”: Thanks in advance for telling us.
I am impressed by your effort and enthusiasm regarding the subject of Adam and Eve and “original sin”. To ensure that I have a clear understanding of your thesis, first I will state my impression.
You believe human beings are evolved creatures.
You believe God endowed Adam and Eve with free will and a sense of law.
Adam and Eve then had the capacity to resist selfish instincts derived from evolution.
Once they disobeyed God, they reverted to their evolutionary state of selfishness and were in need of Grace and redemption.
Prior to the original sin, they were in a state of Grace, which they lost.
All humanity shares the propensity to selfishness and original sin is concupiscence (rooted in desire) and the “propensity to sin” is rooted in evolution.
Let me know if this reflects your thesis. If it does, I would make the following response:
I believe Adam and Eve are particular people (couple) and God directly “created” them (mechanism unknown).
God placed them in a specific place where they were not subjected to the difficulties of natural events and forces.
God taught them, and also I agree with you, they possessed the intellect and freedom to understand God and be in communion with Him.
God also placed the “tree of life” in that, through the Grace of God, they may access eternal life.
God also placed the “tree bearing the fruit of knowledge of good and evil” in the garden and warned them not to partake of its fruit.
Eve was tempted by the snake (Satan) and thus succumbing to deceit, was instilled with a desire to “be like god” through the knowledge of good and evil.
The rest is clear from the Bible. Thus Adam and Eve underwent a change in their nature, and this nature is in all of us. Since the origin of sin is from the devil, human nature has the desire to sin, but humanity is not the source of all evil, and thus God has provided a way to repent and overcome the works of the flesh. However evil (separation from God) entered the Creation and thus the need for redemption.
My comment on “why Eve could be tempted and Adam follow this” is because I cannot understand why she would desire “to be like gods” when they could partake of eternal life and be with God. This is a mystery and perhaps has to do with the subtlety of Satan.
The subject matter is vast and I think we should confine these discussions to specifics.
Antoine, in my humble opinion, you are making things more complicated–even contradictory–when they need not be. In the first quote above you imply that A & E’s first sin was in wanting to achieve happiness without God. In the second quote you imply that the first sin was to choose to loathe God instead of loving him. Why not apply Occam’s Razor and postulate that God wanted something (someone) in his creation to be more like Himself than what Darwinian evolution was able to produce. The original Homo sapiens had that potential if their brains could be ‘programmed’ into a Mind that could distinguish between Good and Evil. Whenever they were unable to rise above the innate selfishness of their evolutionary inheritance, they sinned. By leading a sinless life, Jesus shows us the Way. Isn’t this a much simpler explanation than one which invokes fallen angels and choosing to loathe God? Perhaps it requires one to take a different perspective on the concept of Redemption, but is it heresy?
Al Leo
[quote=“GJDS, post:39, topic:35442”]
They [Adam & Eve] were placed in a space that did not have any worldly problems, so theirs was a simple choice - believe what God said, or listen to a snake (devil). Why they chose the latter seems to me a mystery,
[/quote]There is no scientific evidence for an Eden–a place and time when there were No worldly problems. What if science is correct in this? Could you live with the postulate I just presented to Antoine–that ‘listening to a snake’ was just listening to our intrinsically selfish genes?
best regards,
Al Leo
You notion of what science can show, and of evidence, is not in keeping with how science is practiced, nor with the Christian faith regarding Biblical teachings. I do not know what to make of your speculations - but I am sure you feel you may have a valid point to make -I just cannot see what that is.
Your Statement 1 seems to be self-contradictory: By stating that “everyone chooses their self” and this “results in sin”, you are in fact assuming that everyone is pre-determined to sin and therefore is not really free “to choose to worship God or our self”.
So if you really “start at free will” and take human freedom seriously, then the only coherent positions are the following two:
As well Adam and Eve as each human after them, are all created endowed with free-will. Nonetheless this free will is impaired through “the innate selfishness of their evolutionary inheritance” and this induces “propensity to sin”.
God created Adam and Eve by endowing Homo sapiens creatures with free will strong enough to master their innate evolutionary selfishness. So they had no “propensity to sin” rooted in tendencies intrinsic to evolution. Nonetheless they freely decided to sin dismissing God’s law. Basically they overlooked that God is love and wanted only to possess God’s superiority, majesty and power. Instead of damning them (like the fallen angels) God mercifully decided to redeem them and all possible future sinners by giving them the possibility to repent. To this aim God had a stroke of genius and planed: a) His own suffering and death on a cross so that his majesty and power remain hidden and one can only see what He really is: Love. 2) The “stage of original sin”, that is a stage where all humans can realize that they need God’s help (Grace) to be saved, because their free-will is impaired with “concupiscence” rooted in “evolutionary selfishness” and they feel “propensity to sin”. I think stories of great sinners like David and St. Peter (and also our own stories) prove that God’s plan works.
Position 1 seems to correspond to what George and Albert claim. Position 2 is my position.
I am desolated! After earning a PhD in organic chemistry from U. of Chicago and paying dues as a member of the American Chemical Society for 67 years, you have exposed the fact to the BioLogos community that I have been masquerading as a scientist! Mea Culpa!
Al Leo
To me free will is the ability to make choices based on factors that I consciously or unconsciously consider. Selfishness is one of those factors but I don’t know if I want to blame evolution for it as it appears to only apply to humans. Self preservation would be one factor that you could say is evolutionary. When you say A&E had “free will strong enough to master their innate evolutionary selfishness” you are saying that selfishness was not a factor in their decision making process. But then you say they fall prey to selfishness when “Nonetheless they freely decided to sin dismissing God’s law. Basically they overlooked that God is love and wanted only to possess God’s superiority, majesty and power.” To me this looks like you are trying to have it both ways.
My position then becomes:
Each human is created endowed with free will and an innate sense of selfishness. This sense of selfishness can sometimes, but not always, impact the decisions we make.
Have you read Dawkins’ “The Selfish Gene”? Or do you just disagree with it? I would call the cuckoo bird selfish when it lays its eggs in a robin’s nest.
[quote=“Bill_II, post:51, topic:35442”]
My position then becomes:Each human is created endowed with free will and an innate sense of selfishness. This sense of selfishness can sometimes, but not always, impact the decisions we make.
[/quote]I agree that an “innate sense of selfishness” comes with our evolutionary endowment as Homo sapiens. Our knowledge of what is Good and what is Evil (our conscience) came when our brains were ‘programmed’ to operate as Mind, and we became Homo sapiens sapiens–true humans. With this Gift we have the Free Will to choose. Potentially, we can rise above our evolutionary instincts, and live our lives full of empathy, compassion and brotherly love, as Jesus did. Of course, all of us fall short of this ideal.
Al Leo
No I haven’t. But I would call the cuckoo’s behavior more self-preservation or preservation of the species than selfishness. Is the cuckoo so lazy it couldn’t take care of it’s own young or is it just more efficient to let some other species take care of them and reduce the competition for food sources?
I think when we were given free will we were also given an innate moral sense to help govern the exercise of that free will. So we all have a potential that we do not reach. I guess the question is were we given something else, “the propensity to sin”, that insures that we don’t reach that potential? The 100% - 1 failure rate might cause you to think so, but I am not persuaded. If God slipped in a monkey wrench to gum up the works (how is that for mixing up some metaphors ) that resolves us of responsibility, IMHO.
[quote=“AntoineSuarez, post:49, topic:35442”]
God created Adam and Eve by endowing Homo sapiens creatures with free will strong enough to master their innate evolutionary selfishness. So they had no “propensity to sin” rooted in tendencies intrinsic to evolution.
[/quote]I have had no formal training in Logic, and so I do not quite follow the above quote. If I truly have Free Will to sin or not to sin, then I make my choice based on what I judge to be the consequences. If I have no propensity to sin, then there is no real choice to be made: I won’t sin. We do not demean God when we say he created us with the real possibility to sin. He also gave us the intelligence to discern that the immediate attractiveness of a particular sin is outweighed by its long term consequences.
Al Leo
) that resolves us of responsibility, IMHO.