A.Suarez's Treatment on a Pope's Formulation for Original Sin's Transmission!

So far, the discussion in this thread has brought about a “workable model” of the flood accounting for correlation between revelation and history.

Before this thread may become closed, it would be nice if we could still work out a similar model regarding the transmission of original sin.

I think this could be done on the basis of the following noteworthy statements by @Christy, @mitchellmckain, @MOls, @Kathryn_Applegate, and @GJDS:

@Kathryn_Applegate’s Essay: Why I Think Adam was a Real Person in History:

“They sensed that God was withholding something from them, and they rejected his right to do so. This was the first sin, the first transgression of the law of God. This first or “original” sin brought death in the form of alienation and eternal separation from God. Brokenness, guilt, shame, isolation, and death—all of these we inherit from Adam as our representative (or as theologians would say, our “federal head”). Adam’s sin became our sin.”

These statements could be unified to the following explanation:

God desired “the harmonious flourishing of humankind” and endowed A&E (whether “single couple” or “couple of couples” it is not crucial) with special original grace to totally master the inherited evolutionary selfish urges, so that at the very beginning A&E were completely free of sinful propensities (“concupiscence”). “Human beings were created to do good and sin is a contamination and corruption of that.”

After their first sinful choice A&E lost this special original grace, and as a result the inherited evolutionary urges became sinful propensities within their hearts. Nonetheless God in his mercy decided to give A&E opportunity to repent and allowed them to remain on earth (instead of throwing them to hell).

Thus, for the sake of redeeming all sinners, the earth was destined by God to be inhabited by people sharing sinful propensities and in need of redemption, according to Romans 11:32: “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” Since the Fall, all of humanity is now in the same “state” such that no one person can claim to be better than another. Thus, by holding to the doctrine of Original Sin, we are setting up the idea of equality between all people. The original sin is an event with negative consequences for all of mankind.

In this sense, the fall/original sin affects everyone coming into existence after the first human sinful choice by A&E, even if he/she is NOT a genealogical descendant of A&E: After the first sin in history, the propensity to err and sin is present in human beings, including children. Nonetheless, children are not guilty of sin as far as they do not consciously choose to act following the sinful propensities (anger, jealousy, envy, hate…). In particular, children dying without baptism are NOT condemned to hell. The original sin has effects on humanity in corporate: The individual is affected by it because he/she is a human being coming into existence after the first human sin, and not because he/she has freely and consciously transgressed God’s law.

All humans are bound by God’s love and mercy into “humankind in the image of God”. One cannot define humanity without reference to God’s mercy; it is God’s mercy which constitutes “humanity in corporate” and makes that all human persons are related to each other. To the end that, for the sake of redemption, God is led in his mercy to deprive of original holiness and justice all human persons coming into existence after the first sin. In this sense any sin would have provoked the “state of original sin”, if it had been the first human sin.

I would like to ask the readers of this thread to appraise this “unified explanation” and specify the points where you may deviate from it. In my opinion this would be quite useful and stimulating for all of us.

No worries. If you somehow miss the five day window, all you would have to do is message me and I could open it again with my magic moderator buttons. :slight_smile:

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There is another side to Original Sin that you likely need to add to your synthesis: namely that sin would not exist if God had not set a standard by which people should live. God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree, God also gave the Law, and God Himself sets the standard for what is good

Also, there is an aspect to humanity in that we are capable of knowing what is good and what is evil. At some point God enabled people to have a sense of morality. God would have only held humans accountable for sin after people had received the ability to differentiate right from wrong

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This event of Original Sin, or the time of first sinful choice, would also correspond to the point in human history when humanity was first capable of knowing what a sinful choice was

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Great Christy!

As said, I feel that your notion of “humanity in corporate” is really important to improve the understanding of original sin and its effects.

It would be disappointing if we could not discuss it more in depth. I am keen on reading your post.

Thanks for this Steve!

I answer in this thread, because your comment is tightly related to the model of the flood we have discussed here the last weeks. For details see:

I have read the thread What about Noah and population genetics in Josh Swamidass’ site.

Josh calculates that the time range over which population genetics can rule out an 8-person (10-allele) bottleneck (TMR10A) is about 180,000 BP and concludes that these calculations: “strongly falsify the notion that there was a Noah bottleneck of 5 individuals within the last 10 kya.”

Where “5 individuals” seems to refer to Noah, his wife and the three wives of Noah’s sons, which implies 10 different alleles for the people within the Ark and the corresponding TMR10A calculation.

I would be most thankful to know whether or not you Steve agree to Josh’ calculation and conclusion.

I haven’t checked in detail, but both the method and the conclusion seem quite reasonable.

Thanks Steve for this appraisal.

So the crucial question arises about the status of the millions of Homo sapiens creatures, contemporaries of Noah and spread all over the world.

Before the flood these creatures could not be said to be humankind in the image of God and ordered to eternal life, otherwise we would fall into a contradiction:

  • According to teaching of Jesus Christ and the Apostle Peter all humans ordered to eternal life (and thus accountable toward God and capable of sinning), excepted Noah and his family, became a corrupt population and perished in the flood.

  • This would result into a bottleneck back to 8-persons at the dawn of civilization, a hypothesis we discard in agreement with population genetics.

The only way to escape the contradiction is to admit that the millions of Homo sapiens contemporaries of Noah that remained unaffected by the flood, were not morally accountable toward God and did not sin.

On the other hand, by discarding the bottleneck back to 8-persons at the time of the flood, we are led to the following important interpretation: By the statement in Genesis 9:7 (“As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth”) God blesses the marriages between descendants and non-descendants of Noah as the means to increase humanity and the kingdom of God.

This implies that the families resulting from such marriages are supposed to be capable in principle to educate their children in order they can reach eternal life, and therefore both father and mother are in the image of God and ordered to eternal life as well.

Accordingly, it is fitting to assume that God’s declaration in Genesis 9:3,5-7 marks the moment when God makes the whole Homo sapiens into humankind in the image of God. In this sense on can say that at the end of the flood God “re-creates” (completes the creation of) humankind.

Do you find these conclusions reasonable?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

I fully agree with you!

I would like to add that “the point in human history when humanity was first capable of knowing what a sinful choice was” corresponds to the point when God revealed to humanity that God called and ordered humankind to eternal life in God, made humankind in the image of God.

Could you agree to this?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

A second question:

Christy states:

[quote=“Christy, post:1748, topic:35442, full:true”]

I tend to think of original sin and its effects on humanity in corporate, not individual terms.

[/quote

How does your view of Original Sin relate to Christy’s view?

I think I would agree with Christy’s view, especially in the sense that sin is not some kind of factor that gets passed on genetically. Sin can only occur when the person is capable of differentiating good from evil. Sin also has a corporate impact, affecting a community and can have generational impacts/consequences. I think these ideas are similar, or could be consistent with a federal headship model for Original Sin

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Me? No. I don’t think treating anything in the early chapters of Genesis as historical in any way is reasonable. But that’s not a scientific opinion nor does this strike me as a scientific question, so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

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I have zero personal interest in Josh’s Adam and Eve model and zero expertise relevant to assessing the science behind it.

Steve, I am assuming that you (like me) are committed to the teaching of Jesus Christ and to the data of evolutionary science.

If I am right in this assumption (please correct me otherwise), then you (like me) should treat as historical those passages of Genesis that Jesus Christ treats as historical in his teaching.

I would be thankful to know whether or not you agree to this conclusion.

Correct.

For me, that conclusion does not follow. I do not think that Jesus was teaching the historical character of the early chapters of Genesis.

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No problem. “Josh’s Adam and Eve model” is neither a main concern for me in the discussion we are leading. By contrast I am very interested in your idea that “original sin” affects “humanity in corporate”, and the reason why.

In this respect I am keen to know what you think about the following @MOls’ post:

Thanks in advance for your answer!

It doesn’t have to be disproved by science. Science just nods and smiles, says thank you even, and gets on with reality. Ooh, and what’s revelation? In this context?

Revelation in this context is the Christian Bible and the interpretation of the Christian Bible that has been accepted as Christian orthodoxy over the course of church history.

I think original sin is a theological construct that helps us understand the corporate human condition. I am interested in understanding the current corporate human condition and I think that is primarily what the biblical narratives and expositions are seeking to illuminate. I am not so interested in mapping the construct of original sin onto hypothetical historical events or human anthropological history. That is a speculative enterprise and I don’t find that the proposed answers deal with my personal questions about humanity.

Very clever.

I completely share your interest!

I think that “the current corporate human condition” you refer to, is the condition in which God created humankind in the beginning.

Am I interpreting you correctly?

If YES, is this “corporate human condition” related to the fact that in the beginning God ordered and called humanity to share in God’s love and reach eternal life?