A question for accommodationalists

[fmiddel]

@gbob

So you would say there are many right perspectives for what Jesus said, "no man comes to the father except through me?

Sure. One Jesus, who is the way to the Father. Many ways that happens.

@gbob

Secondly, your skepticism is not per se, evidence or logic. Your skepticism is about you, not about the Bible.

So?

[fmiddel]

@gbob

This is the most amazing thing. On this thread, I am the one arguing for a God who doesn’t tell intentional untruths, It seems to me that most others are arguing FOR a God who tells intentional untruths, indeed cheering for a God who tells intentional untruths. They do this without really thinking through the consequences of following a God who tells any kind of untruth.

You imply that “intentional untruth” (i.e., symbolism, allegory, accommodation, etc.) is a form of deception. It’s not. It’s all revelatory.

When you think about it, all God’s communication about himself is accommodation–we simply can’t grasp infinite love, power, wisdom, etc.

[rsewell (RON SEWELL)]

@gbob

figurative also doesn’t seem to apply. Here are examples of that form of speech

• He has learned gymnastics, and is as agile as a monkey.
• When attacked in his home, he will fight like a caged tiger.
• Can you dance like a monkey?
• Even when he was told everything, he was acting like a donkey.

Just a grammar school technicality, nothing to do with the substance of your discussion, but these are all similes, and similes are definitely figurative.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@fmiddel

One Jesus, who is the way to the Father. Many ways that happens.

Do you see it happening through Islam or Hinduism?
 

@fmiddel

the way

@fmiddel

Many ways

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

I certainly see it happening with particular Moslems and Hindus.

Many corridors can bring one to a single door.

But think the point is that the one door is Jesus who is God and not Dale or gbob. The point of saying that there is only one mediator between God and man and it is Jesus is frankly to say that God doesn’t require a mediator at all. Jesus IS God. And therefore God is His own mediator. So the mediator between God and man isn’t the Catholic church or the Methodists or the Baptist or the great evangelical preacher on TV or Christianity. God speaks for Himself! He doesn’t require any mediator at all. So when people act like they speak for God then they are LIARS! Deceivers! Wolves, snakes and devils!

[Marshall (Marshall Janzen)]

@gbob

This is the most amazing thing. On this thread, I am the one arguing for a God who doesn’t tell intentional untruths, It seems to me that most others are arguing FOR a God who tells intentional untruths, indeed cheering for a God who tells intentional untruths. They do this without really thinking through the consequences of following a God who tells any kind of untruth.

“Must I needs want solidness, because
By metaphors I speak? Were not God’s laws,
His Gospel laws, in olden time held forth
By types, shadows, and metaphors? Yet loth
Will any sober man be to find fault
With them, lest he be found for to assault
The highest wisdom. No, he rather stoops,
And seeks to find out by what pins and loops,
By calves and sheep, by heifers and by rams,
By birds and herbs, and by the blood of lambs,
God speaketh to him; and happy is he
That finds the light and grace that in them be.”

(John Bunyan, The Pilgrim’s Progress)

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@mitchellmckain

I certainly see it happening with particular Moslems and Hindus.

Of course there are individual Muslims and Hindus becoming Christians. That was never the question. The question is are there ways to Father without individuals naming the name of Jesus.

Jesus who is God is not Mitch, either.
 

@mitchellmckain

LIARS! Deceivers! Wolves, snakes and devils!

I didn’t mean to get you so excited. My apologies.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Dale

Jesus who is God is not Mitch, either.

Thank God! Woe to the world if that were not so!

[fmiddel]

Right. Many ways to the Way. No way outside the Way.

K, let’s see…some people “come to Jesus” through an emotional experience, others through intellectual investigation, someone maybe through a miracle, or a book, or experiencing the love of Jesus through another individual. Even through dreams!

What was your way to the Way? Is it the only valid way?

Of course, you could interpret “way” differently. But that just reveals that there are more ways to interpret how Jesus is the only way.

Right?

[fmiddel]

Here’s another great case in point:

Why was the “prodigal son” starving? What’s your interpretation?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

You rather missed the point.

@Dale

Of course there are individual Muslims and Hindus becoming Christians. That was never the question. The question is are there ways to Father without individuals naming the name of Jesus.

[fmiddel]

That was actually not at all the point to which I was responding. I was responding to your post addressed to me. Not to the one addressed to someone else.

@Dale

Do you see it happening through Islam or Hinduism?

The context of the post was piecemeal snippets of previous posts of mine.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Thank you for that.
 

You rather missed my point, which was my question to you and remains unaddressed:

@fmiddel

One Jesus, who is the way to the Father. Many ways that happens.

@Dale

Do you see it happening through Islam or Hinduism?

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Dale

The question is are there ways to Father without individuals naming the name of Jesus.

So Dale’s gospel is salvation by knowing the password? Seems I have heard this one before from the Gnostics.

Ways? There are no ways. “With men this is impossible.” No way at all.

But isn’t faith the way? No. Faith doesn’t ask that question of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. That is why Jesus discussion with the man in Matthew 19 ended with him going away in disappointment. He was asking the wrong question. What is enough? Nothing is enough. There is no way. There is no enough. Salvation cannot be one of your accomplishments in life. You cannot do it.

Salvation is a work of God. Period.

So this question comes down to the power of God and saying what God can or cannot do. Can God save Muslims and Hindus or does He need the help of the Christians in order to do so? LOL I could laugh all day at that one.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

You are talking around the real question and not answering it.

@Dale

Do you see it happening through Islam or Hinduism?

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Dale

Do you see it happening through Islam or Hinduism?

No. Nor “through” Christianity. Salvation is a work of God. Period.

So I would say this is not the real question.

The real question is which of these teaches the gospel of salvation by the grace of God?

Christianity.

And what about the other things which Christianity teaches?

Which is correct about the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Christianity.

Which is correct about the nature of God and Jesus?

Christianity.

Which shows us most fully and clearly what God is like?

Christianity.

But… of course I think this. I am a Christian. I have little doubt that a Muslim and Hindu would disagree with me.

But I am a Christian because I think what it teaches is correct. That is all. Being a Christian does not purchase salvation!

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Thank you for putting scare quotes around “through”.
 

@mitchellmckain

Salvation is a work of God. Period.

Absolutely. I didn’t choose to soften my own dead and stoney heart.

[fmiddel]

Depends. I’ve heard lately of Muslims having dreams of Isa, revealing himself to be God’s Messiah. And they become Jesus-followers.

Of course, Isa is the Arabic name of Jesus, a prophet in Islam.

Is that not, in a way, “through Islam”?

More difficult for Hinduism, of course.

I was, however, quite clear that when it comes to “Way,” Jesus is the only one, although there may be many “ways” to him.

Isn’t that clear enough?

And you didn’t answer my question about the “prodigal son.” Why was he starving?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Yes, I have heard of Jesus appearing to Muslims in dreams as well, and am thankful for it.
 

@fmiddel

Is that not, in a way, “through Islam”?

Sure it is. Praise Allah and his prophet Muhammad.
 

@fmiddel

Isn’t that clear enough?

It is now. If you had been earlier, I wouldn’t have asked the question.
 

@fmiddel

And you didn’t answer my question about the “prodigal son.” Why was he starving?

Please enlighten us. (The Prodigal God* is a good read.)

 

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*From the Introduction (which you can read in the “Look inside” feature on the Kindle page):

The narrative is as much about the elder brother as the younger, and as much about the father as the sons.

[fmiddel]

@Dale

Sure it is. Praise Allah and his prophet Muhammad.

Really? Are you really being that disingenuous?

@Dale

It is now. If you had been earlier, I wouldn’t have asked the question.

Hmmm…it was pretty clear before. There is one Way, and many ways to that Way. Is that really unclear?

@Dale

Please enlighten us.

No, I’m asking for your interpretation. From the text. Not from someone else’s book.

It’s really a fairly simple question. Why was he starving?

And yes, I’m very aware of much of nuance of the parable–the father, the elder brother, the social context, the literary context…but thanks.