A Multiverse may be the foundation of God's Creation

Dear David @heddle,

Thank you for sharing.

Christians do not live by fear. They live by faith. God’s perfect Love casts our all fear.

That being said, I am very concerned that false scientific ideas (lies) such as the multiverse can fool people into thinking that they do not have to take Christianity and (good) science seriously. We all need to take the Truth in the form of both God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and (good) science seriously before it is too late.

That is real cause for concern, but not for fear.

Not sure what I would say to this except that your claim that the multiverse is a lie or false scientific idea is ironically not true, or at least we don’t know yet either way.

Hey there Roger A.Sawtelle! An interesting viewpoint you have in your response.I know there is much going on in the question of God vs.the Multiverse vs.Science and I know the contradictions will carry on for a long time to come.My topic"A Multiverse may be the foundation of God’s Creation" happens to be a viewpoint I have even with all of the debate over the Multiverse that’s happening.Well I can’t confirm its existence but what I do know is that if it does exist,then God created it for his own divine reasons—an if we never find scientific proof of it,that is not important.Some Humans tend to be vain and always need to justify if something important is or is not for their own satisfaction and egos (I’m not talking scientific curiosity or the need to know from research). What if there is an eternal Multiverse but God Almighty himself wants none of them to know about the other?That would leave us in a spot won’t it.Anyway if it is,then it is and if not then we claimed a flawed theory.I really think that it’s wonderful investigating the endless wonders of God’s great Cosmos and that it should be done with a steady hand without guessing,making groundless theories or trying to compete against the naysayers of the world.If there is truly a Multiverse,then if and when God wants us to know about it,that will happen.Thanks for your response!

Hi Kenneth:
I find it interesting (and a bit ironic) that you find that belief in a Multiverse is at least as comforting as a belief in the Anthropic Principle (either weak or strong). I believe I am correct in stating that the multiverse concept was first proposed to rebut the arguments put forth by Anthropic proponents (especially for the ‘strong’ type) that a single Universe could not have existed for as long as >13 billion years (let alone support Life) without the existence of a benevolent Creator who fine-tuned the ‘natural’ Laws we now observe.

I agree that, in principle, a belief in a Multiverse need not be incompatible with Christian Faith, but also (if I’m not mistaken) it cannot be subject to scientific verification. So I leave it on the back burner of ‘theories of interest’–leaving more time to wrestle with the problems (and potentials) of Quantum Physics.

I was a “Cradle Catholic” and educated K-8 in a parochial school. Thus you may also have faced some of the intellectual juggling I was subjected to as I matured and chose science as a career. Encountering the works of Teilhard de Chardin was very influential for me. He made the concepts of (Darwinian) evolution compatible to me and where I was already headed: namely, to a complete rejection of Original Sin. As you undoubtedly know, his theology was soundly rejected by the Vatican, and is now only surreptitiously ‘poking its nose’ under the tent of Roman dogma.

If you would like to become current with some his more ‘progressive’ ideas, I can recommend “From Teihard to Omega” Ilia Delio, Ed. It is on Amazon.

Greetings Albert Leo! No my belief in a Multiverse Created by God hasn’t been motivated or influenced by the weak or strong Anthropic Principles or proposed life-span of the Universe but a culmination of things over a period of time—along with reading of great books about Cosmology.Let’s just say that the verdict is in (for me at least)
.
I know that people tend to conflict God against Science and the Bible against a possible Multiverse but as simple as this may sound,is not God the creator of all things—The Bible,Scientific technology,research laboratories,genius innovators,aeronautical craft etc? My point being that we seem to forget who’s in charge here.I know that Humans always have to have an answer,a solution or some type of justification for something and they often think that everything has to make sense to them right?To me we need get back to the basics by acknowledging the Man in charge (God of course) and take in the information he allows us to attain gracefully and not rush to judgements or dispute over something that’s only a probable theory(as far as science is concerned). If there is a Multiverse out there, I am absolutely sure that mankind will find out one day!Now wait a minute,oh we already know because we are the Multiverse or part of it no?—“chuckle” just joking.I sometimes think of the idea of other earth-like planets going through the cycle we do ,looking for us so they can say that they finally discovered the Multiverse out there! —they may number more than a few.But good point about Quantum Physics—that is at the heart of Multiverse Research as well as Macro Technology which together may provide the scientific testable proof of whether the Multiverse does or does not exist guy.

OK "in closing I appreciate your recommendation about the book “From Teihard to Omega” but may be a while to get to as I now glance at 5 books waiting to be read on my dresser top—so I will be sure to keep a note about it.Thanks for your response!

Even before there was a cosmological multiverse, there was discussion about a quantum multiverse which comes from the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics (in the 1950s). It stems fairly naturally from the Schrodinger equation, which for there not to be a quantum multiverse, the Schrodinger equation needs to be incomplete in some way. The problem is that we don’t have any clue how it might be wrong just yet if at all.

There’s also the cosmological multiverse which stems mostly from the theoretical framework of eternal inflation. While we have some positive evidence for inflation in our universe, we don’t have any experimental evidence that this continued on producing other bubble universes. We have tried to think of clever ways to measure other universes but so far have been unsuccessful.

So the multiverse really is just a logical extension of two (or at least one) well substantiated ideas in physics. But of course, it presently lies beyond our ability to measure for the foreseeable future. I’m not sure about the history of it being used in Christian-atheist debates but that’s a little of the background at least as to why it’s a real hypothesis that is talked about in the scientific community.

I believe in an infinite God and we constantly seem to be finding out that God’s creation is more vast than we ever imagined, so I certainly have no problem with the idea of God creating a multiverse.

However, the fact is that the multiverse is generally offered as an alternative idea to that of the existence of God after the rather decisive setback to atheists (in their debate with theists) on the discovery that the universe had a beginning 13.8 billion years ago. Both posit that existence began with something: theists say it all came from God, and atheists/naturalists counter that it all came from natural law. But the beginning of the universe 13.8 billion years ago does present the atheist/naturalist view with some difficulties, for instead of natural law as a part of something which already exists it has to create the universe from nothing. This is not inconceivable, and Stephen Hawking suggested that quantum physics gives a basis for thinking that the universe is the result of a quantum fluctuation. But others have proposed the alternative to this idea of a disembodied natural law creating the universe in the idea of a multiverse, which also helps to counter the fine tuning argument.

The point here is that there is no more objective evidence of a multiverse than there is of a creator God, and I don’t think there ever could be. What lies beyond the singularity of the universe’s beginning is not objectively knowable. So while anything is possible, I see no reason to complicate matters, and I personally find God to be the more believable explanation than a multiverse. However, this suggestion does illustrate one fundamental fact, why the idea of God will always be unfalsifiable and thus not a valid scientific hypothesis. It is just too easy to fit God into any set of facts you want.

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If something is not true, then it is false or what I would call a lie, particularly when it is used to obscure the truth, which is what the multiverse does.

If you have a question that has two possible answers and the first is in harmony with science, philosophy, and theology, and the second is not in harmony of any of these, which one should we accept as true? If someone is not satisfied with this conclusion and wants to register a protest or dissenting opinion, that is alright with me, but it should be very clear that this is a matter of personal opinion, and not a fact. We do not need “alternative facts” in science.

If YHWH is not the God of Truth, but the God of Falsehood, then we are all really in a difficult spot. However I know and I hope you know that God is the God the Truth, and Satan is the god of lies. I do not want to have anything to do with the god of lies in science… I hear enough from him on Twitter.

Can you try to clarify what truths you think the multiverse is obscuring?

I just explained the two main scientific reasons why a multiverse is a viable hypothesis.

Then you should stop following Satan on Twitter already :sweat_smile:

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Is the multiverse concept similar to the acceptance of the diversity of biological species except on a quantum level? It is just phases of reality instead of dna. Since the fall, humanity has had a split reality that we still barely have an understanding about. For it to be a viable scientific theory the connection between the different realities would have to be observable and defined in a way that humanity would accept, and probably not involve an unknown being.

I doubt it is believers in God who fear the unknown. It would be those who objectively reject that which they cannot verify; who cannot objectively quantify fear so pass fear off on to those who can.

If I read what you have said correctly, there is no tangible evidence that our universe is sharing existence with billions of other universe, only some mathematical speculation. In my understanding of science, it is not based on ideas, but solid evidence. As I say it may be a hypothesis, but it does not seem to be viable.

The universe has a Beginning and it was created out of nothing, no matter, no time, no space, and no energy.

I do not follow Satan on Twitter. Don’t you listen to the news?

Yes, Kenneth, the theological concept that ‘God is the creator of all things and is, therefore, in charge here on earth’–is simple. And yet, as in ages past, we still struggle to reconcile the ‘fact’ that evil exists in a world that a good God has created. Can it be that we humans have a distorted concept of 'intrinsic evil’? Many Christians reject Darwinian evolution because it often involves predation, and of course survival by means of “red in tooth and claw” (and the suffering and death it inflicts on the prey) renders it intrinsically evil. Or does it?

Can it be that for true creation (of something truly NEW), something of the OLD must be sacrificed? In the early Cosmosphere some of the first stars that were formed were red giants, which could synthesize the heavy chemical elements in their hot, high pressured interiors. The future potential for these elements (heavier than iron) would remain forever unfulfilled if these stars were not unstable and ended their short lifetimes in monstrous explosions.

While current science cannot inform us on how life first appeared on earth (beginning of the Biosphere), most probably it was simpler than the viruses we encounter today. As these evolved and became more complex and more capable of dealing with the challenging environments of a dynamic planet earth, 'death’ of the old forms was necessary to make room for the more adaptable. This appears to be a basic Law in God’s plan for creation, even though ‘death’ in these early stages of the biosphere actually meant the inability to maintain a polymer length that was achieved earlier. And of course the biosphere was billions of years old before complex nervous systems became useful, and thus suffering would become a part of predation.

In trying to accommodate the ‘evils’ of suffering and death with the concept of a benevolent Creator, we Christians should welcome the viewpoint that science currently provides. Rather than encouraging humans to “get too big for their britches” and deny their need for God, science should help us see God’s Creation more like He intended us to. We Christians believe it was Jesus’ role to accomplish this from a spiritual perspective, but, IMHO, God welcomes our attempts to use science to achieve a productive view of the material world as well.
Al Leo

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Hi there Mitchell W.McKain! Good piece you submitted based on the theists vs. the atheists regarding the Multiverse.That gives some insight—I had no knowledge of that before your post.Sounds like the concept of Multiverse was being used as some kind of lame excuse within this context.

You pointed out “that there is no more objective evidence of a Multiverse than there is of a Creator God”,which is correct.But at the same time,while you never saw,touched,or even heard God’s voice talking,you believe as you began your post that there is an infinite God right? Not to compare God to the Multiverse but if you have a true belief in God,then you need no physical evidence of his existence from your perspective correct?This is akin (though not as profoundly as God) to the way I perceive the Multiverse itself.You stated ''you see no reason to complicate matters",so for you personally it’s complicating and maybe so many others as well.But for me,I swear that I am so snugly certain within myself that a Multiverse exists that I require absolutely no testable,experimental,measurable,predictable proof,data or anything else to convince me that it’s real.

Lastly,as you pointed out,people do tend to easily fit God into any set of facts they want.Multiverse is not a fact but considered a theory by Scientists,Cosmologists,and society in-general.Having said that,How can I fit God into the Multiverse theory while he is already the planner and creator of it all?(considering that it actually does exist). I make no excuses for why I believe in a Multiverse.I’ve acquired enough knowledge in the last 3 years to totally convince me that a Multiverse does in fact exist.Thanks for your response!

I am a theist, 1.5 on the Dawkins scale since I believe doubt is necessary for mental health and to live as if something is true is how I define “knowledge.” But you can also say that I am an agnostic, in the classic sense, with respect to an objective knowledge of the existence of God. I don’t believe that objective knowledge of God is possible. I not only fully acknowledge that my reasons for believing are totally subjective, but I am predisposed to reject the objective validity of any proof or argument for the existence of God. Part of this is because the kind of God that fits my reasons for believing would not agree with such objective knowledge.

Sure… of course, some people are equally sure of the existence of fairies, shetani, ghosts, demit, psychics, or jinn. I certainly acknowledge that my belief in God and angels is just as subjective as their beliefs.

In Jewish theology (my tradition) the idea of multiple worlds is no cause for concern, as many Kabbalists taught exactly that:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/982257/sc/fb/fbclid/IwAR3qlcCjBfoqf4owfOkkqmONw7LDcPq6Hv9DGpSco9FIhWgJ0CTpiyQchTA/jewish/Do-Parallel-Universes-Exist.htm

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With all due respect you are getting into trouble because despite your protests, you are comparing the multiverse to God. The problem is that the multiverse is or is supposed to be physical, while God is Spirit. There is no definitive physical evidence for the multiverse, so we have no right to say it exists.

There is much spiritual evidence for the existence of God, which should be definitive. There is also physical evidence for God, such especially the universe. The multiverse would be evidence for the existence of God, if it existed, but something that does not exist is not evidence for God.

What is the knowledge that convinces you to believe in the multiverse? Is it spiritual, philosophical, or scientific knowledge?

Great question Roger A. Sawtelle! I can say that my belief in the Multiverse is based upon all of the above—as spiritual,philosophical and scientific but the core of it comes from the fact that I have been able to photograph and videotape otherworldly entities over the past 3 years.Not just some hum-drum guess-work either—I’m talking Alien Beings,exotic spacecraft,structures,cities,strange landscapes and much more.My collection of photos range into several hundreds with dozens of videos as well.Now,one can then ask the question:How do I know it’s the Multiverse?I really can’t make that call to announce to all the world—but I honestly feel in my heart and soul that it is no matter what others may think after seeing my collection.I have such a story I can tell about it all since I started this in June of 2016.But here we have a planet bent on scientific proof of Multiverse so it is what it is and I stay mellow in-general about it—My wife got plenty of testimony from me but she is not a fan,which I’ve accepted.I am certainly not one to go in reserve about my discovery so I decided to release some of my best work to my YouTube channel:

[Roger,if you wish to view my video again (or those in the forum interested in seeing it)
go to my channel at YouTube >“kenesto’s bestos 100” under my uploads to “Multiverse Dimensions”.]

I am a retired hospital worker now and this is my passion.I hope that you enjoy it Roger!

Roger,I just wanted to point out from your post yesterday that I in no way was comparing a possible Multiverse to God the Almighty.It really would make no sense being that all of reality (Mutiverse or not) comes from God! I also respectfully have no protest to all other opinions on the matter.Everyone has there own beliefs,convictions and opinions and I am not one to try to change any of that.

We know for a fact there are other dimensions existing here in space-time.Do you think it not possible that those can be witnessed by Human eyes.My video may be a look into such dimensions.I know it may be up for speculation by many but I believe it can be a Multiverse.This is my own personal take so others (to include yourself) can decide what they are.Nothing in my video is fake or fabricated in any way though.My camera lens gave me all that you see in the video.God be praised if it is indeed a Multiverse!

Kenneth @quavis, Thank you for sharing. Very interesting.

Just for the record, I do not think those pictures are the result of the multiverse as I understand it would structured. However it looks as if it could stand some further exploration.

Best wishes.

You’re welcome Roger! Believe me,I’m not trying to rally a cause claiming to all that my photos and videos are a Multiverse—The first thing most will say is"prove that they are",which I can’t.But at the same time if it is,why throw it all out and dismiss it entirely? I humbly submit,what if this is mankinds rare opportunity for clues of extraterrestrial life in case scientific testing for a Multiverse will never be possible? I know though as you stated that it stands for further exploration—that is what I do now that I’ retired from the work force (be it my limited capacity for research withstanding). Be certain of this though my friend—whatever these entities are,the Lord created them like he did us,and I ask him regularly for guidance on what to do (if anything ) with this amazing discovery.Thank you for your sincere dialogue Roger!

P.S.Just in case you’re interested part 2 titled “Multiverse Dimensions II” is also available for viewing at “kenesto’s bestos 100” channel under my uploads at YouTube.