So if evolution is not purposeless, what is its purpose?
You might reject this notion, Patrick. But the Bible says that He creates all things for His glory … If God is apart of evolutionary processes then that could be a reason. The problem is that most of the time we ask, “What is it’s purpose from our perspective?” … And so we interpret creation through a false lens (biblically speaking). It can also be used to demonstrate the meaning of “through death comes life” as can be seen in Jesus’ sacrifice as well as his parables — “a seed must first die before it can become a tree”…
But of course none of this matters if you don’t believe in God or the Bible.
-Tim
Well my life matters and the lives of my family, friends, and society matters greatly too. I put them first rather than something I have never seen, never heard from, never saw any impact of.
So if that is one purpose of the evolutionary process was to produce mankind, is it done now? Has it stopped? Or does it continue randomly and without purpose as it is observed to be doing?
I think you misunderstood, Patrick. The “this” I was saying “doesn’t matter” was the things I just stated … My words of demonstrating a possible reason for the purpose of evolution would have little-to-no impact on a person who doesn’t believe in God or the Bible. This “this” I was referring too was stating a purpose to natural processes … To a person that believes that what goes on in nature is pretty much purposeless, that person won’t be convinced if I infer purpose from it (teleology).
-Tim
That makes sense. I was just saying that one can live a purposeful and meaningful life in a purposeless and meaningless universe.
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That’s quite the paradox, my friend.
Any meaning you give to it will be completely subjective. Which seems to nearly go against the meaning of the word “purpose”… Is it your purpose to feel like one has purpose?
-Tim
Yes, it is very paradoxical. And yes it is very subjective. And it is one of the most 'free" I have ever felt. When I realized that I was completely free to set my own purpose and meaning in my life, it was exhilarating. I was in my late 20’s and it really did change my life -all for the better. My purpose was to live life for me, my family’s, my town’s, my country’s benefit. Do good for goodness sake. Don’t harm. Enjoy life. It is not an illusion - it is the only life that I got. And it is happening right now - not in the past and not in the future. No masters, no gods.
I wasn’t saying “life is an illusion” … Simply stating that creating a meaning out of meaninglessness is very similar to that of an illusion.
I think everyone has masters, and everyone has gods … The only difference is the forms they come in. Slaves to what people think, your own desires, lusts, greed, fitting in, standing out … We all have masters that lead us one way or the other. So the real question is what master do you chose?
Do good for goodness sake … Enjoy life … Love each other … All of these concepts can be found in what Christianity professes to teach. The major difference is the hope that it’s not the last chapter … And death isn’t the end of the road.
-Tim
You are correct. We all create our own masters. Most of the time these are harmful masters. But the realization that you can define the masters and chose which ones are good for you and which ones are bad for you.
Sure, I actually live my life pretty much like a good Christian. But I believe that when I die, I die. It makes this life more precious to me. I really do want to see my grandchildren someday. It really do want to learn what is discovered this year and next year. I do want to live when I know that the years ahead will be filled with both heartache and joy.
Just shocking … to think you and I don’t agree on the meaning of words.
I am satisfied with the meaning of the text as it is stated. When I wrote that sentence,
it was clearly not intended s a word-for-word quotation. That was my paraphrasing. And
I see no reason to think my paraphrasing fails on this particular point.
George
At the age of five, I was told that God made me to know Him. It took about 3.5 billion years of biological evolution to make humans capable of that, and initiated the Nooshere, the sphere of ideas. From now on human evolution in the biosphere will be, in a sense, regressive. Any increase in evolutionary capability (at least for humans) will come from the Noosphere–human ideas forcing genes to behave as we think they should, not driven by ‘natural selection’.
Al Leo
@Patrick
"Well my life matters and the lives of my family, friends, and society matters greatly too. I put them first rather than something I have never seen, never heard from, never saw any impact of.
Patrick, from what you have posted, I feel that your worldview and your morals are very much like mine. And I cannot be positive that anything awaits me after I die. But I do have hope that something awaits me, and that it will be good. Why? Partly because I was impacted–by a rifle grenade, no less–and the doctors who treated me said there was no way I could have survived it. I’m gullible enough to think it wasn’t just ‘lucky chance’. This experience (and a number of others) left me with a strong feeling that I have a Friend, in some other dimension perhaps, that my mother and the sisters of St. Joseph told me was God. I just wish you could have had a similar experience–without the busted skull, of course.
Al Leo
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Yes, Al our morals and worldview are similar. As I take care of parents and parents-in-law I see how everyone clings for life. I am watching my mother and my mother-in-law in their late 90’s. They are so interested in the lives of their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. They still love life with purpose and meaning. Neither one of them worries about what it will be for them after they are died. They are much more interested in what will happen to their children, grandchildren’s lifes. Neither one of them talks about “what’s next” even though both are Catholic and want to have a traditional Catholic funeral.
Patrick, I get a fuller understanding of your quote above because I consider Teilhard’s concept of the Noosphere real and influential. Mothers (especially) are interested in how the biological genes they have passed on will affect the future. But more importantly, they are interested in how their ‘noogenes’ will impact human societies in the future. I often think that the latter is what ‘old maid schoolteachers’ (like the nuns who taught me) find most meaningful–the valuable lessons (noogenes) they pass on to young minds that act on them and pass them on to others.
I think you will agree with me that death is not frightening–its living an unproductive, painful life that is scary. And I am so glad that Catholic funerals are not like they were when I was an altar boy: white replaces black & purple; "On Eagle’s Wings’ replaces ‘Disea Ire’ (sp?). I know you will do everything possible for your mother and mother-on-law to be sure they have (what my Mom prayed for and got) a ‘happy death’.
Al Leo
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