A Geological Response to the Movie “Is Genesis History?”

Most creationists don’t seem to think that creation and the flood are outside of science’s purview; how did you arrive at your conclusion?

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This is true. However, you do need to realise that it is also based on evidence. If you are going to attempt to refute evolution, you need to be aware that the evidence exists, and to be able to demonstrate how it has been misinterpreted. If you don’t have any training in the relevant sciences, you will espouse arguments that are demonstrably incorrect, and this will only highlight your lack of understanding. That is not a good witness for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s what Paul talks about when he tells us to avoid foolish controversies in Titus 3:9.

Basically: (a) make sure you know what you are talking about, and (b) make sure your facts are straight.

Again, evidence.

We don’t necessarily need to see evidence to affirm creation, the flood, miracles, the resurrection etc. Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, and in fact faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (Hebrews 11:1).

However, if you favour one particular creation model (e.g. young earth) over another, you need to be able to account for any evidence that contradicts it. As it stands, the only way that the earth can be six thousand years old is if it were created with evidence for 4.5 billion years of history that never happened. Personally I do not believe that God would create evidence that deceives us, especially not concerning aspects of a subject about which, as I said earlier, the Bible leaves a lot wide open to interpretation.

Again, you need to make sure you understand the science properly before you attempt to refute it, so that you don’t end up bringing the Body of Christ into disrepute by spouting demonstrable untruths.

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Evolution isn’t merely theoretical. It’s highly empirical. You don’t need courses or degrees to see that.

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Here’s the thing: I think maybe you do if you’re a skeptic.

I personally have been a skeptic for many years. I am a pastor at a YEC church and only recently accepted evolution.

@Joe_Stout I don’t have degrees in science, either. Mine are in divinity and theology, I have no science background. I’m sorry if my question came off as condescending. I don’t want you to think I was trying to say that whoever has the most degrees wins.

I did realize something, however, after talking with some atheists recently. These people were bringing up “problems” with the Bible that are easily solved in first year theology classes. It amazes me that so many people reject the Bible who have only read bits and pieces of it. Their entire Bible knowledge comes from YouTube videos of debates between atheists and Christians, and from Sunday School classes that they quit when they were teenagers.

When they argue, they are arguing from smugness and ignorance, and it’s not a good look for them.

As I was lamenting this fact, I realized I was guilty of the same thing about evolution. All my knowledge of the subject came from basic high school level classes, popular-level books that only give broad outlines of evolution (Bill Nye, anyone?), debates with Christians, and lots of reading of Christians who were explaining it only with the purpose of trying to dispute it (“Is Genesis History?”).

You don’t have to go back to school to take some great classes on evolution. There are many free courses online that start with a bit more than a high school level of knowledge, and move to an introductory college level. Here’s a great one:

https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:WellesleyX+ANTH207x_3+3T-2015/c1ce40b1035a47e4a6fdc16c4cf55700/

I didn’t even take tests, I simply audited the videos and reading material and learned a great deal. As a pastor, one of the things I learned was that I, at the very least, needed to change my tone toward evolutionists. The evidence was not fickle (as you said above), it was my understanding of it that was fickle.

I shudder to think of what some of the teens that I taught, who went on to college, must think of Christians, based on what I taught them about evolution. To preach the gospel of Jesus Christ alongside ignorant errors based on my fickle understanding of evolution, dilutes the perfect truth of that message and places a stumbling block to the gospel in front of anyone who knows better. I have grievously misled many sheep, and harmed their faith by my ignorance. I will stand before God and give account for that. I’m not looking forward to that day. There are real consequences to preaching a message without being educated on that message.

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I wish I could give you more than one “like” for this post…

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What Casper said.

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Daniel, the question arises, how should we as Christian brothers and sisters respond to incorrect or demonstrably false information given by other Christians? True much is opinion, and can be argued as such, but in the case of the movie, some of the geology is arguably misrepresented, and in some eyes, that sullies the gospel witness.
It seems that we have done a poor job of correcting ourselves in the Christian community, whether it be leadership with financial or sexual misconduct or other failures. I am not sure I know the answer, as we believe in grace and redemption, yet must hold ourselves accountable as a community of believers.

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I also know Karl very well and have corresponded with him for more than 20 years.

I think the passage @Daniel_Mann has in mind is found in a blog Karl wrote last year: http://www.beaconbroadside.com/broadside/2016/07/noahs-ark-park-keeping-christians-in-the-eighteenth-century.html

Here’s the full paragraph containing the part that @Daniel_Mann apparently has in mind:

“Noah’s story, as a tale for children, has a certain adventurous charm, and I was fascinated by it as a kid in Sunday School. Much of that adventure came back to me when I visited Ham’s other project, the Creation Museum, a story I recount in Saving the Original Sinner. But I have to confess that I am horrified by the story as an adult and wonder why it took me so long to see just how horrifying the story is. Taken literally—the entire point of Ham’s new park—the story suggests that God drowned all the children on the planet for their parents’ sins. Even if we assume that all adults outside of Noah’s family were terrible sinners deserving to be drowned, the collateral damage in the deaths of innocent children and animals dwarfs every major genocide in history combined. If Noah’s story is literally true, God is a monster.”

This is a long way from saying that God is a genocidal maniac. Indeed, Karl’s point is that, since (I assume based on this paragraph) he cannot believe that God is a monster, he can’t take the Noah story literally. In other words, Karl does what all theologians do at one time or another, regardless of whether they are biblical “literalists.” He’s interpreting a biblical text in light of his theological convictions–and his convictions (in this instance) seem to be the same as yours, @Daniel_Mann. He doesn’t believe God is a monster, and I gather you don’t either. However, Karl’s idea of what would qualify as monstrous is apparently different from yours, since the wholesale destruction of the living world (including “innocent children and animals”) obviously qualifies as monstrous for Karl, whereas it apparently doesn’t for you, @Daniel_Mann.

If I’ve assumed too much about your position, @Daniel_Mann, then please correct my mistaken impression.

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I have already provided the link above.

I guess you have read Giberson’s “Saving Darwin,” where he wrote:

“Acid is an appropriate metaphor for the erosion of my fundamentalism, as I slowly lost confidence in the Genesis story of creation and the scientific creationism that placed this ancient story within the framework of modern science. Dennett’s universal acid dissolved Adam and Eve; it ate through the Garden of Eden; it destroyed the historicity of the events of creation week. It etched holes in those parts of Christianity connected to the stories—the fall, “Christ as the second Adam,” the origins of sin, and nearly everything else that I counted sacred.” (Saving Darwin, 9-10)

Actually, I appreciate his transparent confession about the effects of the belief in evolution, even though I find it tragic.

And it predictably got worse: http://biologos.org/blog/exposing-the-straw-men-of-new-atheism-part-five/

@Daniel_Mann, I think you missed the point I was making. I was responding only to that part of your comment about depicting God as a “genocidal maniac.” What I wanted you to see is the context in which he said that, in which Karl clearly (IMO) implies that he does NOT believe that God is like that.

Yes, I own Karl’s book, “Saving Darwin”; he sent me a copy. It’s already been pointed out to you that, immediately after the sentences you quoted, Karl denies that the “acid” has eaten away his core Christian beliefs, including the Resurrection (which is at the top of my own set of core beliefs). You quoted him fairly, but you extrapolated unfairly beyond that by not quoting him further.

I wrote a column touching on related matters a few years ago, but that server is down at the moment so I can’t link it. Maybe I can do that later.

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Hi Daniel,
That quotation of Karl Giberson is misleading. That’s what we call quote-mining. Please read this:

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And of course the whole issue of false or misleading claims is what this thread is all about in the first place.

@Daniel_Mann, please be careful.

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I understand your concerns. I suppose I should first note that I do not blame the sheep, but the shepherds. Regarding those with scientific training, I have seen too many shenanigans to write off. Disregarding evidence. Distorting evidence. Ignoring evidence. Refusing to retract disproven theories. Personal attacks on the faithfulness of other Christians who disagree. The list goes on.

No, I don’t blame the sheep, but I think the time has come (or is long past) to blame the shepherds who are actively engaged in erecting stumbling blocks to the faith of many, and vigorously attacking those who labor to remove those same stumbling blocks.

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I see that Biologos has just taken down the link I had provided. However, quoting Richard Dawkins affirmatively, here is what Giberson had written about the Old Testament God:

• “tyrannical anthropomorphic deity,” “commanded the Jews to go on genocidal rampages…but who believes in this [OT] deity any more, besides those same fundamentalists who think the earth is 10,000 years old? Modern theology has moved past this view of God.” http://biologos.org/blog/exposing-the-straw-men-of-new-atheism-part-five/

This statement clearly demonstrates that Giberson had been on the slippery-slope of evolution’s embrace. Clearly, the acid hadn’t stopped with “Saving Darwin.”

How dishonest of you, charging me with dishonesty, after you have removed the evidence! I am finished here!

Daniel, the whole website is down. We didn’t delete anything. Take a couple of deep breaths.

EDIT: Looks like it just came back online. Including the Giberson link.

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It’s not my place to speak for Karl, but he has been crudely misquoted here, and smeared with a casual viciousness that is a far more effective rebuttal to “the faith” than any experiment or any rock or any quote from Dawkins or Darwin. It matters that decent people have attempted to correct @Daniel_Mann, but unfortunately it also matters that his behavior is not unusual and is validated by religious habits and themes that are centuries old.

This conversation very effectively illustrates why many people (and I’m one of them) leave Christianity. It has nothing to do with evolution. It has everything to do with basic and universal norms of human decency. The “acid” of scientific facts of natural history can easily dissolve many central aspects of conservative Christian belief. But it takes the conservative Christian himself to kill faith. Karl’s faith, I think, withstood that assault. Mine didn’t.

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Daniel,

I see that Brad has already explained the problem on our site that you misunderstood. If you notice my comment above from earlier this morning, I also found the site down so I couldn’t link something I had wanted to link.

@Daniel_Mann, I never accused you of any dishonesty at all. Nor do I do so now. What did I say to give you that impression? I was simply saying that you quoted someone partially–and accurately as far as that passage went. There’s no dishonesty there. I simply pointed out that Giberson then said some things that aren’t consistent with the larger conclusion you were drawing. That’s about interpretation and full accuracy, not dishonesty.

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That is true. I noticed that the website was down earlier this morning.

@Daniel_Mann, now that our site is working again, I can provide the link to the column I wrote partly about the issue you’ve quite properly raised about evolution and the loss of faith. Please take a look at this column: http://biologos.org/blogs/ted-davis-reading-the-book-of-nature/science-and-the-bible-theistic-evolution-part-5

Now perhaps you will still conclude (as is your prerogative) that Polkinghorne and others who think as he does (a group that includes me) have indeed abandoned their Christian faith b/c of science. IMO, such a conclusion would be unwarranted: there are enormous differences between someone like Polkinghorne vis-a-vis someone like Shailer Mathews. If you want to say that science and other parts of modern knowledge led Mathews to abandon his Christian faith, I would agree with you; but not so for someone like Polkinghorne. In other words, there are more than the two possibilities you’ve presented. It’s not just (a) reject evolution and keep genuine Christian faith; or (b) embrace evolution and abandon genuine Christian faith. I agree with you that some people conform to (b), but often they are people who began in (a). There is also (c) embrace both, since there is nothing in evolution that contradicts the ecumenical creeds.

At least, that’s what I offer for your consideration.

Now that the site is working again, I hope you’ll reconsider your decision to exit in some anger–anger that would have been justified, if we’d removed the column you wanted to link, but we didn’t.

A technical note to all: you can use Google search to find the URL of a web page when a web server is temporarily down. Like this:

It’s the first hit! Click on the green arrow to the right of the link, and you find a link to the cached page on Google’s servers. I have highlighted the link in yellow:

Click on that link, and Google will provide you with the URL and the page as it was cached recently on Google’s servers.

HTH,
Chris Falter

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