yes but given the map of the middle and far east shown below., particularly given that the tower of Babel was near Babylon in northern Iraq much closer to Ararat…i think his claim, that Gods people ended up in the “promised land” of India, is hugely problematic geographically !
To claim a civilisation don’t know or remember their own history…I’m am trying to think of an example of a modern country who don’t have a clue about their history…oh hang on…apparently Israel???
Also 1% by weight or volume?
If I understand Bharat correctly he thinks everything from the Garden of Eden to the Exodus took place in India. The Exodus was to the “Promised to the World” Land (not exclusive to the Jews). After the Exile on the return to the PTTW Land the Hebrews forgot that they came from India and for some reason decided they had been in Egypt before the Exodus.
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Weight.
isnt there a lot or irony in this?
Jesus actually physical came to this world and face to face tried hard to convince the Jews to turn from their ways and follow the covenant they had made with God (and the second one He made with them found in Isaiah I think it was) and yet in the end, we have the apostles being directed to take the gospel to the gentiles to spread to the world. We look at the spiritual history of various cultures around the world outside of the middle east and find similarities in their stories.
Going way off topic here.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 Which the Jews don’t consider as a second covenant and Christians consider to be the New Covenant with Christ.
Agree with you on this, Adam…
See below for a quote from swarajmag.com which is also cited in an article in the Jewish Times. I suppose some of this is a source of B’s thinking…plus I saw an online ref to the same issue in an article submitted by an Indian archaeology publication…But as you have said above, the history of modern Israel (and thus of the Jewish people as a group) began with a man living in the cosmpolitan city of Ur of the Chaldees — somewhere in the latter decades of Sumerian civilization – who rejected the multiple deities of his culture and set off for another land — which was not the Indus Valley…As for the references to Aristotle’s geography and genealogical theories below, all I can say is that, if he was cited accurately by his pupil, there was at least ONE other pupil of his who discovered, by experience, that Aristotle did not know “everything.”. That student was Alexander the Great… ok see below excerpt
:
I shall in this column try to make sense of a puzzling statement of Aristotle (384-322 BC) that links Jews with India. This statement is recalled in a fragment by Aristotle’s pupil Clearchus who traveled widely and whose inscription on a tomb of a friend is preserved in the Afghan city of Ai-Khanoum.
The Jewish scholar Flavius Josephus (37 – 100 AD) quotes from Clearchus’s fragment in his Contra Apionem [Against Apion], which has Aristotle say: “Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calami, and by the Syrians Judaei, and took their name from the country they inhabit, which is called Judea.” (Book I:22.)
can you provide links to all of these I would be interested in reading through all of them. Fascinating stuff. I have read Eusebius Ecclesiastical history…I vagely recall reading something of Josephus I’m keen to return to his writings.
I cant get your swarajmag.com link to work for some reason? Can you check this and repost…id love to read it. all I come up with in my google searching for something like your link is the following Swarajya (magazine) - Wikipedia I feel I might not be in the right place with that as Im not sure what the article title is I’m looking for?
Yes, 1m bricks would need a “lot” of straw. But they would need lot-lot-lot more clay. So conflict should be on clay and that negates the Bible.
I have been encouraged by such many references by Megasthenes, Aristrotle and others.
I have been encouraged by such many references by Megasthenes, Aristrotle and others.
You are comparing existing Hinduism with ancient Judaism. The Rig Veda has no idols and the Upanishads are very much for One God.
Many problems. 1] Why would you go to Turkey if the destination was Canaan. 2] Chaleans = astrologers = Indian people, not west asia. 3] No wells of Beersheba that are opened up and closed (unlike Beri in THar desert that are done exactly so). 4] Nose ring and red lentil soup are patently Indian. Most importantly the narratives of Ab-ram and Ram (hindu) are parallel. Both go to south under duress with one more male member. Wife taken to the king. The names are obviously similar. So on and on. So Adam-Noah-Abram-MOses lived in India and Moses migrated to Israel.
There is no Hidekkel, Gihon or Pishon in West Asia.
Pl do share the link. I have not heard of this. Also know that the Targum Jonathan says Gihon carried waters of Pishon. No such situation.
Flood and Babel too in Indus Valley. We have to match the Bible with geography and it matches with Indus, not West Asia. So if Bible is correct, the pre-Exodus has to be in Indus Valley.
The Tower of Babel made with burnt brick could be something like given in the pic from India. The Ziggurats dont come close.
Sir Williams Jones, a judge at the Supreme Court at Calcutta, was the first to propose that the European and Indian languages belonged to the same Indo-European language group. He suggested that Adam was parallel to Swayambhuva and that both were born in 4006 BCE (1799: 313).
British free thinker Thomas William Doane drew attention to the parallel between the Biblical Garden of Eden and Hindu Mount Meru. He noted that four rivers flowed from both (1882: 3, 13).
Professor at Universities of Bucharest and Chicago Mircea Eliade drew parallel between the creation of Eve from Adam’s ribs and the primeval pair of Yama and Yami described in the Rig Veda (1958: 423).
Professor of literature at Sarah Lawrence College in New York Joseph John Campbell drew parallel between the making of woman from man’s ribs in the Bible and the splitting of the primeval being into husband and wife in the Hindu texts (Campbell 1962: 9-10, Vayu Purana 10:7-8).
Campbell, Joseph 1962. The Masks of God: Oriental Mythology , London: Secker & Warburg.
Doane, T. W. 1882. Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions , New York: J. W. Bouton, [Online]. Available at: The Project Gutenberg eBook of Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions, by Thomas William Doane., (Accessed July 22, 2020).
Eliade, Mircea 1958. Patterns in Comparative Religion , New York: Sheed & Ward.
Jones, William 1799., The Works of Sir William Jones in Six Volumes , Vol I, London: G G and J Robinson.
Professor of literature at Sarah Lawrence College in New York Joseph John Campbell drew parallel between the making of woman from man’s ribs in the Bible and the splitting of the primeval being into husband and wife in the Hindu texts (Campbell 1962: 9-10, Vayu Purana 10:7-8).
The Indus Valley was collapsing around 1500 BCE. Most left eastward to Ganges Basin. The Hebrew left for Israel. Exclusively.
well, it might be great if spelling Indian names were easy…
google: “Was Aristotle’s Claim of Indian Origin of the Jews True?”
Below also is something from Baltimore Jewish Times, an article published in 2015…Many things — such as the locale of ancient names – have others disagreeing and so I do not know how far to accept the Jewish Times version. But … For ex, in the Jewish Times article, the author notes that ancient Havilah was likely India…and perhaps those whom she/he consulted thought so. Havilah in Genesis 2:11 is identified with Arabia, or parts of it, by Wenham and Westermann in their commentaries. They do not suggest India, and it is a difficult stretch to put Arabia anywhere in the Indian subcontinent…but Havilah is an ancient name and so maybe some HAVE suggested India. Sailhammer – in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary – says point-blank that “Havilah cannot be identified” …which may be a fitting resolution to the matter, given all that can be seen about it
OK…good luck!
Again just google something like “Were the Jews from India?” or similar… Below is the quote from Jewish Times
Seven years ago, I read a quote from Aristotle claiming the ancestors of the Jews — the Hebrew people of the early Bible — came to the Middle East from ancient India. I began investigating and found all the evidence agreed with Aristotle. According to ancient Jewish authorities, the land where the Biblical Eden was located — Havilah — was ancient India.
and from biblicalcyclopedia.com re location of Havilah…
The only method of fixing more nearly the centers of these two divisions of Havilah is to look for some trace of the name yet existing. But, although Oriental names linger with great vitality in the regions where they have arisen, yet the frequent transference of names, caused by trade or by political revolutions, renders such indication very uncertain (Von Bohlen, on Genesis 10: 7). We shall therefore content ourselves with mentioning that Strabo, quoting Eratosthenes, places the Χαυλοτἃ ιοι near the Nabathoei, north of the Arabian Gulf (Strabo, 16:4), and that Ptolemy (4, 7) mentions the Αύαλ῝ ιται, on the African coast, near Bab-el-Mandeb, the modern Zeylah (comp. Plin. 6, 28; Gesen. Thes. 1, 452). Niebuhr also finds two Khawlans in Yemen, one a town between Sanaa and Mecca, the other a district some miles to the southeast of Sanaa (Beschr. Arab. p. 270, 280; see further, Buschung, Erdbeschr.V, 1, 601; Michaelis, Spicileg. 1, 189; 2, 202; Forster, Geog. of Arab. 1, 40, 41, etc.). These names may very possibly be traces of the great Biblical country of Havilah. SEE ETHINOLOGY .
no bharatjj…you are focusing on the wrong thing
What is right thing?
Read what I said to you in an earlier response…also check what I just said in response to adam (above) where we talk a bit about this “India thing.”
Egypt built with stone.
Thinking out loud is OK…but it might have been best to go back and edit before pressing Reply. That way people will know what your point is. The Indus Valley is in India/Pakistan. India is referred to as a “subcontinent” in some quarters… Egypt is in the north of Africa, which is a continent…“Israel” is not all sand or all desert…Turkey land is on a map.
In Indus Valley build with burnt bake bricks needing a lot of straw
The right sort of earth is plentiful and right there (you have brick fields by the earth and ideally a water source). Straw usually has to be brought to that location and the most limited of the ingredients for mud brick.
The core of Egypt is the Nile river valley (upper Egypt) and delta (lower Egypt). It is surrounded on both sides by desert. The land around the Nile was very fertile. Ancient Egypt at times expanded well beyond the core, such as further south up the Nile into what is modern Sudan or into the Levant.
The Levant is the area along the eastern Mediterranean containing what is now Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and part of Turkey. It has the coastal plain which was quite fertile. Beyond the first set of mountains/hills are a couple of major rivers, the Jordan which flows from the north to the south into the Dead Sea and the Orontes which flows south to north before exiting into the Mediterranean in the modern Turkish province of Hatay. Southern Levant is basically the Jordan river basin and lands to the east/west/south while northern Levant is the Orontes river basin and lands to the east/west/north. There is also the Litani river whose headwaters are near the headwaters of the Orontes and flows south then west into the Mediterranean near Tyre; it is sometimes considered the dividing line between southern and northern Levant.
Ancient Israel/Judah would have land of varying degrees of fertility. The river valleys would definitely be fertile, the hill country would be limited by the amount of rain and how good the irrigation system was, the coastal plains again generally fertile. The area around the Dead Sea and south would be more desert (barring a few oasis). See also Geography of Israel - Wikipedia (note this is modern Israel).
Turkey is big with many geographical regions.
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