Those were actually your words:
“There is no way that any science or scientist can deduce what we term “fine tuning” from any scientific theory.”–GJDS
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I’m not I’d agree with the teacher giving you an A+ for introducing something supernatural into what is a science based subject.
How would you do this? At what stage did this entity intervene? What approach did it use? No satisfactory answer can be given, and I’d suggest that if your essay was for a science class then it’s almost certain that your entity hypothesis lessened the science.
I don’t think that acceptance of evolution (I dislike use of the word ‘accept’ with regard to something so factually established as evolution, but that’s a word people use) is related to religious belief, though I do think its denial is much more telling.
It was for an Environmental Studies class and I was twelve! He liked the presentation, including the art work and the critical thought - I was comparing two subjects with different conclusions about history, and figuring out what to do about comparing them. I came up with about four different viewpoints and I said the pros and cons for each. I was also developing a sense of how to respect people who come to different conclusions. So it was probably as much social science as it was anything else. But this was “a project on anything we have covered in the year”, so we had quite a bit of freedom. I think the meaning of that grade was partly that he had assumed I would just say “The Bible says…” I didn’t! I was learning to think objectively and to present views that I didn’t hold.
He gave me A++. I thought the second + was a bit over the top!
Yes, these are my exact words - so why do you argue about stuff taught in schools and science is somehow stoped by belief in God? Your comments do not make sense to me, and I am not interested in starting a thread on those matters.
To “1st George” from “Second George”:
So, in other words, if I correctly understand what you are saying to @T_aquaticus, why should we argue about how the BioLogos Mission Statement radically affects the nature of Evolutionary Theory being discussed with Christians?
Are you serious? < rhetorical question.
This is the very point of these discussion boards - - to show that a Christian has a very different kind of Evolutionary theory to work with - - something different from the limited scope of Evolutionary Theory from the limited viewpoint of Science alone! <=The kind of Evolutionary theory taught in schools!
We have Evolutionary Theory harnessed by God Himself to do God’s will.
You will complain that I’m being presumptuous, because we have no idea how God would harness Evolution … and yet we have no idea how God would harness the water cycle to create rain, or how he would harness genetics so that he could convert “dust” and “mud” into the first creatures on Earth, the marine life mentioned in Genesis 1. Or how he would convert the genetics of Adam to the genetics of Eve when he created her from a rib!
“1st George”, you do understand that the Evolutionary Science promoted by BioLogos is exactly the kind of Science that God would expect Christians to adhere to, right?
“Second George”
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First off, there is a difference between a belief in God and a belief in creationism. One is not the other.
You are aware that creationist groups have tried to have the theory of evolution removed from public schools, are you not?
I also don’t think it is much of a stretch to say that Christians who are raised on creationism will be much less likely to pursue a career in the sciences. All you need to do is find Christian universities that adhere to creationism and see what type of research they are supporting, if any. I would hazard a guess that Christian universities who accept evolution have a much more vibrant and active research program than Christian universities who do not accept evolution. Creationism is a scientific dead end, and it only encourages students to not look at the evidence.
Their are denominations out there … possibly rhyming with “Crumbly of Todd” … that are quite inclined against careers in the Sciences…
Hi There,
I understand the concerns you have expressed are relevant in the US. I am from another part of the world and I cannot recall experiencing, or knowing, any activities you mention. Thus I cannot provide you with a debate, if that is what you seek.
Cheers.
Just as long as you understand that subsets of Christian belief are getting in the way of science education in different parts of the world. Thankfully, people who support science, atheist and theist alike, are banding together to push back against this misplaced animosity towards science.
I think this statement I overblown - science education has continued as it has. The conflicts are derived mainly from anti-religious activity that has sought to change many norms and practices. In some areas education has become so distorted towards secular/anti-religious view and practices, that parents would rather educate their children at home, rather than send them into a perverse and promiscuous environment, exposing them at a young age to all sorts of unwanted influences.
It is this, and not science, that has caused such concern around the world. I get angry when people such as yourself decide that almighty science is under attack - this is sheer propaganda. Arguments between evolutionists and DI and others, tend to feed into this propaganda.
“The Louisiana Science Education Act, Act 473 (SB733) of 2008[1] is a controversial law passed by the Louisiana Legislature on June 11, 2008 and signed into law by Governor Bobby Jindal on June 25.[2] The act allows public school teachers to use supplemental materials in the science classroom which are critical of theories such as the theory of evolution and global warming.[3] Louisiana was the first state to have passed a law of this type.[4]”
I fail to see what this has to do with science class.[quote=“GJDS, post:84, topic:36062”]
I get angry when people such as yourself decide that almighty science is under attack - this is sheer propaganda. Arguments between evolutionists and DI and others, tend to feed into this propaganda.
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See the Louisiana Science Education Act above. Conservative states are still trying to weaken or eliminate the teaching of evolution (via pseudoscience).
The reason for the concern is that every denomination fears being oppressed by an equally zealous denomination with other ideas: Mormon vs. Baptist, Catholic vs. Congregational and so forth.
The day that religious ideas are allowed to be taught in public schools is the day the Satanists will prevail - - with tax dollars being diverted so that even Satanists must be given their share.
Allowing religious teachings into the schools is the camel nose under the tent…
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My remarks deal with the educational institutions that I am familiar with, and these are outside of the US. Since this Louisiana Science Education Act impact on the citizens of that state, I think they should debate it between themselves. That is democracy.
I refer to acts by atheists who have tried legal means to prevent religious people discuss religion in schools, even if non-religious ones can not attend; others who insist on sex education that amounts to pornography and claim parents should not prevent their children from attending, and the list goes on. This is a blatant push by a minority of atheists and anti-religious groups to impose their warped views on others, and when there is push back, the shrieking commences that their freedom is taken from them, that tyrants are preventing this and that… and a lot of rhubarb etc
I find it surprising you fail to acknowledge this, and instead keep on this fairy tail that science is under attack (and you really mean ToE is criticised), and schools will soon collapse because of this - such views are overblown at best, and smoke screens at worst, to advance the perverse agenda by many anti-religious groups worldwide. If some in the US oppose this, more power to them.
Has anyone done any research on this? It may well be true - but we need more than a hunch!
Just pointing out that science education is under attack in the US.[quote=“GJDS, post:87, topic:36062”]
I refer to acts by atheists who have tried legal means to prevent religious people discuss religion in schools,
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In the US we have a constitutional amendment which creates a wall of separation between church and state. Using public school funds to teach religion is a violation of that constitutional amendment. I am under the impression that no such statute exists in the UK, so you may not be familiar with it.[quote=“GJDS, post:87, topic:36062”]
others who insist on sex education that amounts to pornography and claim parents should not prevent their children from attending, and the list goes on. This is a blatant push by a minority of atheists and anti-religious groups to impose their warped views on others, and when there is push back, the shrieking commences that their freedom is taken from them, that tyrants are preventing this and that… and a lot of rhubarb etc
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All of the sex education courses I have seen are entirely voluntary. In fact, students often have to have their parents sign a permission slip in order for them to attend. I think you are crying wolf on this one.
I know of no creationist research program at any university. I haven’t seen any papers published on creationist research. However, out of curiosity, I took a look at two of the biggest universities that either overtly or covertly state they support creationism: Liberty University and Bob Jones University. Neither of these schools has a PhD program in the biological sciences, or any graduate programs in the natural sciences.
Compare that to Christian schools like Baylor which openly accept evolution, have PhD programs in the natural sciences, and have active research in those subjects.
“Evolution, a foundational principle of modern biology, is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and is accepted by the vast majority of scientists. Because it is fundamental to the understanding of modern biology, the faculty in the Biology Department at Baylor University, Waco, TX, teach evolution throughout the biology curriculum. We are in accordance with the American Association for Advancement of Science’s statement on evolution. We are a science department, so we do not teach alternative hypotheses or philosophically deduced theories that cannot be tested rigorously.” --Department of Biology, Baylor University
If someone wants to dig a bit deeper, the easy way to see if a university is doing research is if they have a PhD program in biology. If they don’t have a PhD program, then chances are they don’t have much research, if any at all.
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That is very convincing! It isn’t exactly what I thought I was asking (because of a difference in the meaning of the word “school” in the US and the UK), but still good to know.
What I would like to know is how many young people are being put off science careers because of their creationist upbringing. So my research would choose say 20 Christian schools (pre-university), 10 of which favour creationism and 10 of which favour evolution. Then chart the numbers going on to study science.
That would certainly be an interesting study.
A rough estimate could be built up with calculating a benchmark.
If the 45% of Christian families that are Creationist have 2.2 children (say);
And 50% of those families support Science careers less than average (say);
And the combined effect has an “X” factor influence - - (say 0.083 for the purpose of calculations):
100,000,000 Christian families (< fictional number)
45,000,000 Creationist families (< fictional sample result)
2.2 x 45 million = 99 million ( of course, this would need to be divided up amongst, say 20 years of fertility)
x 0.083 = 8.2 million non-science careers
But I’m sure a better number can be had by starting with how many actually go into science now, each year, and working in the opposite direction!