Quite true…so take care and keep it cool, Roger. This has little to do with ID or evolution aside from the fact that someone else seems to have connected them to some of it — rightly or wrongly… As I said, I thought that was interesting that this connection was made in the course of things. I will read those books that were recommended.
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The fact is we judge people that we do not know for the wrong reasons. Jesus told us not to judge people though we can judge actions if we really understand them ands for the right reasons. Our role as Christians is to help people know Jesus and love people, not to condemn them for whatever sins we think they might have.
Roger…that is the best thing you have said so far. “Be ye wise as serpents and innocent as doves” …that involves some judgment. And both of us made a judgment on the situation in Broward County FLA today…and unless one of us said “:Yippee:” (we did not), our judgments were good ones.
To be wise and innocent we need to listen to the commands of Jesus which is NOT to judge Persons, as 45 has repeatedly done, but to judge Actions.
Luke 6:37
37 Judge not, and yiu shall not be judged: condemn not, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and you shall be forgiven:
Matthew 7:1-5 (NIV2011)
1 “Do not judge others, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
I have developed neighborhood relationships with YECs over the course of time. I have respected the magnitude of their influence on young people. They are usually friendly and well-intentioned. The Body is a complex thing. Thanks for your extended reply.
I hope this is a reply to Jay Johnson’s question about drawing a straight line between Kuyper and Schaeffer. I cannot remember off the top of my head what the degree of connection is. But Kuyper certainly is a giant in the Reformed world.
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Thanks again for the ref to the works by Forrest and Lebo. I did get Forrest’s pdf online. Unfortunately, it is only a pdf for the first few pages. And now I understand the significance of “Dover” in the title by Lebo.
I have read Gould, Schaeffer (though decades ago), Numbers, Behe, Collins, and a few others whose names are not on the tip of my tongue at the moment… Gould is gone now and, I am quite sure, of a different mind about a number of things. Who knows what Schaeffer now thinks?
I could not get Forrest’s book at my local library but no doubt will find it on Interlibrary Loan at some point. Her later chapters on paleontology, etc., may contain things I already know – or maybe something more that I don’t. The initial quote in her pdf —by a scientist asserting that humanity’s ignorance led to past assumptions that a deity was at work in lightning and other events —almost justifies the “Wedge position” of the ID people, do you not think? How is that quote any different than the most extreme YEC assertion??? They are almost kissin’ cousins – although they do not want to kiss!!
Your title “From Scopes to Reagan” sounds intriguing. Scopes may have lost that battle but — the war??? Still ongoing.
I like the Biologos site because I appreciate the thoughts and efforts of Francis Collins. I have two (or both??) of his books. I have also listened online to the speakers at a Biologos-sponsored conference. I may find that some strain credulity, but not all do. And I do appreciate that most or all seem to be working through the implications of faith and science in a sense. … and that they speak from faith, not against it.
I have no problem with that. Copernicus, Newton, Kelvin and many other notable scientific names from the past had deep religious convictions — as you well know. The quote at the beginning of Forrest’s pdf seemed ignorant of that detail.
How to relate the first couple chapters of Genesis to modern scientific knowledge is quite a challenge. And modern scientific knowledge may change. “Where were you when God laid the foundations of the heavens and the earth?” [paraphrase by me] is still a good question – even though you and I know the answer. Oppenheim said the Old Testament was a “generally reliable” source, and while he might not have applied that thought to the first chapters of Genesis — it does mean the book as a whole should not be rejected out of hand, but looked at respectfully.
Others on these forums seem to see all through the lens of their own politics and the particular socio-cultural issues they favor. Since, as the saying goes, “ideas have consequnces” — there is room for seeing how this can be so. But that wrestling match comes after the other thing.
The wrestling match seems to be some of what you are engaged in, and that is not so much my interest. But best wishes on your research.
Thank you for the extended reply. I spent two hours with Forrest and Lebo each. Very important for ID and YEC to know how they come across to nonbelievers.
I appreciate the update. I am sure they were interesting conversations.
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