What does original sin actually mean and what are its consequences?

Exactly! For YOU “God is good” only means that God is good to you because you look at God in terms of utility. You automatically add the clause “for me” because that is the only kind of good you can comprehend. But for me, good does not mean good for me. God is wholly and purely good because love is his ONLY motivation and to be a servant of servants is the ONLY greatness He believes in. But none of that means that He can do anything for me. And that is the point. Even if I am a lost cause and there is nothing God can do for me, it does not change the fact that God is good and thus I will praise Him regardless. In other words, I make my praise and worship for God utterly devoid of any attitude of entitlement whatsoever.

In my view, much of Christianity has effectively wandered over into Gnosticism with a gospel of salvation by knowledge and by works of the mind where they think they are entitled to salvation because they do or believe the right things. It is no wonder that the god they worship sounds so much like the Demiurge of the Gnostics – an evil, hateful, vengeful, ruling by fear, self-centered meglomaniac who only cares about obedience to every whim and monstrous command he make – because the only goodness of god they really care about is what their god can do for them.

Many pay some lip service to this idea, but they really don’t try very hard and the result is that so much of what they say and do is inconsistent with this. The result is that when they do say such things it sounds rather hollow. They may say they are doing things without expectation of reward and yet act like they are being rewarded for their actions and beliefs. People see this falseness. But above all, you cannot worship a self-centered god who rules by threats and makes everything about him and yet expect people to take you seriously when say that your god is good, let alone that you are not following this example you are lifting up.

It seems to me that you make your praise and worship for God devoid of any relationship to God whatsoever.

If God does love you then God must care about you. If God does care about you then God would give you the gift of eternal life, you are a lost cause. However you are not a lost cause because you say that you praise and worship God, unless you are telling a lie.

Now I can agree that much Christianity is Gnostic, but I wish you would be more specific. Have you made a detailed survey of all the branches of Christianity in order to come to such a conclusion. It seems unlikely, so just who do you mean?

Also you are including me in with the Gnostics without knowing me and my theology.

Are these words addressed to me or not?

Genesis 2:7 supports you. See here

Blessings

First off I wish to say that humans have original sin and that all humans have it. I see it more as a spiritual issue rather then a biological one that cannot be solved by science. It starts in the heart at birth and over time with maturity it grows in us and we become evil in our thoughts in ways such as not listening to our parents when we are young, stealing toys, being means and as we get older it gets much worse.

Humans did have knowledge of what was good and evil and we got it from God. The issue was that when we ate of the Forbidden Fruit, we decided on what was evil and good outside of God and thus became like our own gods defining what is right and wrong. God gave the first humans divine inspiration to have knowledge and the capacity to do so. The issue is not that we had now knowledge, but the issue is that we decided to no longer trust what God had told us what was right and wrong and decided to define it ourselves.

Greetings, Quinn. Thank you for your note. I think that behaviorally, we all do sin. My church would agree with you. However, I’d be interested in your thoughts on the potential of misinterpretation of Romans 5:12 as per Pete Enns You searched for romans 5:12 - The Bible For Normal People. It’s an interesting thought.

I appreciate reading your tag. Which Bible school did you go to, may I ask? I appreciate your sharing your thoughts and insights; I imagine we all have struggled (I have, and still do) over the questions of evolution and faith.

Onto looking at it I seem to have a common agreement in what Pete Enns says and is basically what I say. Adam while an individual also represented all humanity and thus all who are human are guilty of sin and thus the spiritual issue of sin and turning from God take place. I disagree with most ways of thinking in seeing sin as a biological infication in the human body and see it as a spiritual matter and takes hold of humans the moment we are born and it festers and grows in us as we grow older and see the evil of the world.

I went to Victory College (formerly called Victory Bible College when I went to it) in Oklahoma. It was a good Pentecostal-Charismatic bible college and taught me a lot but it taught somewhat heavily in YEC and I took it on due to the idea of “If the Bible is true to all it says then Genesis1 is literal and true as well” I held onto YEC for years and it was a mental-intellectual prison for me of sorts, I couldn’t enjoy documentaries when they spoke of the age of the year in terms of millions of years and I would cringe and I couldn’t enjoy museums and nature tours. But since I have come back to EC I feel free and am able to enjoy these things once more.

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15 posts were split to a new topic: George explores the meaning of concordism and the marketing of GA to creationists

Scripture refers to the Israelites as "God’s Chosen People". Does that not imply favoritism?
Al Leo

Yes and No. God chose the Greeks to invent philosophy. God chose the Romans to rule the “world” for hundreds of years. God gives nations roles in history, just as God gives individuals roles in society and history. Special roles mean special responsibilities, so no one is really favorite meaning that some persons have privileges other do not.

David was the “apple of God’s eye,” but he had to pay the price of his martial life, his adultery with Bathsheba and coverup, and his failure to discipline Amnon and Absalom.

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It is quite possible that it is devoid of any relationship to the god you describe. And that is a good thing as far as I am concerned.

God does love you. God does care about you. God does offer you the gift of eternal life. This is true of everyone. The problem isn’t God. It never has been. The problem is that it remains our choice whether to accept the gift or not. But Jesus and Paul were also quite clear that entitlement does not work.

Primarily I speak of the Gnostic gospel of salvation by a secret knowledge such as correct doctrine, which I have heard affirmed numerous times by people identifying themselves as Christian. What Jesus and Paul taught however is the gospel of salvation by the grace of God. I have no idea whether this has anything to do with denomination or not, but it seems pretty widespread to me.

Well now you know my criterion, it is for you to say according your theology which I assume that you know even though I do not. I am not really interested in making discussions personally like that. I am only interested in the principles.

Not really. The people of Israel also had a great responsibility, and when they failed they were punished terribly.

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You have a problem here. You equate secret knowledge, which Gnosticism with correct doctrine. They are very different. Secret is secret, They are not shared or discussed publicly, which is o primary reason this movement died out although some people are trying to revive it.

Correct doctrine on the other hand is widely discussed and shared. That is the reason why it has lived on and developed.

The argument that Jesus and Paul had with their opponents was over Legalism. Jesus and Paul opposed the correct doctrine of salvation by grace through faith over against incorrect doctrine of salvation by works under the law. Ironically many “Christians” try to make a work out of what they deem as correct doctrine.

quote=“mitchellmckain, post:131, topic:39404”]
it is for you to say according your theology which I assume that you know even though I do not. I am not really interested in making discussions personally like that. I am only interested in the principles.
[/quote]

If you do not know my theology, then how can you know my understanding of God.

But you did.

No. Your reaction is not the same as what I did. If I really did what you claim then you wouldn’t have asked if what I said had anything to do with you. Thus my reaction is, “why does everything have to be about you!”

As I look at the whole of scripture, it seems that God chose the Jews mostly just because he had to choose someone. He seems to have chosen them not because they were special in any way, but because they were pretty much like anyone else at the time. They were a good representative sample of humanity. He used them to form a nation that worshipped him and had a history and culture that could be used as a language by which we can understand Jesus. If Israel had never happened, we wouldn’t know what to make of Jesus. We may as well thank them for their service. Thinking that they were chosen because they were special in some way is just the sort of mistake we humans with our hubris tend to make.

Scripture shows us that God chose Abraham and his descendants because of the faith he displayed in God. This faith makes Abraham and all who descend from him regarding displaying such faith particular and chosen. Ultimately all will be given the opportunity to live in faith, but the covenant with Abraham makes Israel the chosen nation.

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And there is the interesting case of Melchizedek. But I always enjoy the quote from Fiddler on the Roof, when Tevye says, “Lord, I know we are Your chosen people…But, couldn’t You choose someone else sometime?”

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Indeed - I too enjoy that treatment of being chosen.

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I believe original sin is something that evolved. Animals and early hominids are/were incapable of sinning because they had not “eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil”. God in one sense did not want us to obtain knowledge because we would have the ability to sin (but He knew we would get there). The more knowledge we get, the higher capacity to sin, and the worse the natural consequences could be. I find it entertaining that we associate the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil as an apple. Sir Issac Newton was inspired by a falling apple to wounder about gravity and gave rise to modern physics. This inspired Einstein to develop the Theory of Relativity which later gave us nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons gives us the capacity to help bring about Armageddon. There is a point in our development where God will see us as knowing right from wrong and having the ability to sin. We will also have the chance at knowing and accepting Jesus giving us access to the Tree of Life again (being with God in Heaven). After we sin we cannot eat from it unless we accept Him. This comforts me in knowing that when a young child dies they will be in Heaven with God, because they did not get to eat of the tree of knowledge yet. Notice once man knew he was naked he is capable of sinning. Little kids love running around naked with no shame. Once they have shame they need to know Jesus and accepted Him.

I would consider God’s interaction with Abraham, including the appearance of Melchizedek, to be part or the process of carrying out his previous choice of the Jews. Abraham’s faith became a message for us.

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