Well, the Christ of the Bible isn’t a brother of Satan, and after the resurrection didn’t go preach to native Americans. We call that a clue.
What level of accuracy do you require? 100%, 90%, 50%?
You have indicated in your previous replies that a personal, life changing encounter with Jesus is proof, of what I am not sure. Does having this experience require a perfectly accurate record of the words Jesus said? What about the people who report being saved after reading just a portion of the NT?
Have your ever read a harmony of the gospels? It doesn’t take much reading to realize that the sayings recorded in each gospel don’t always agree. Yes the differences are small, but you are the one requiring accuracy.
I think your statement about the AP news wire is true but not for the reason that comes after it. Bart doesn’t suffer from this. It’s typical conservative Christians who treat the Gospels as literal-factual histories and not Gospels. They are good news about Jesus and mix theology, faith, the present and the past all into one matrix.
These sources aren’t by eyewitnesses, are from a poorly documented time with little external corroboration, start from 40 years after the events they purport to report and are probably all literarily dependent on one source (GMark). If 40 years from now someone told me they saw one of the murdered Sandy Hook children walking on water the day before I certainly wouldn’t believe them. And for the Gospels it really might be someone saying they knew someone who knew someone who said Jesus did this. Further, I would be even more skeptical if they started finding this child in ancient prophecies that have nothing to do with them.
And Sandy Hook was as awful as it gets in life. Hated using it as an analogy.
A synopsis of the Gospels should be required reading for all apologists.
ALL ARE WELCOME. JOIN IN THE FUN.
Well you recall incorrectly. You might want to read The Autobiography of Malcom X. It has been quite a few years since I read it.
No. I got it right.
Well, the Christ of the Bible isn’t a brother of Satan, and after the resurrection didn’t go preach to native Americans. We call that a clue.
Good news. I didn’t know you were a bible believer.
What level of accuracy do you require? 100%, 90%, 50%?
None. You?
You have indicated in your previous replies that a personal, life changing encounter with Jesus is proof, of what I am not sure.
Is that a question?
Does having this experience…
What experience?
Have your ever read a harmony of the gospels? It doesn’t take much reading to realize that the sayings recorded in each gospel don’t always agree.
Yes. Where are they irreconcilable?
These sources aren’t by eyewitnesses…
Where is the evidence to prove that claim?
They are good news about Jesus and mix theology, faith, the present and the past all into one matrix.
What does that have to do with their accuracy?
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. John 15 vs 3
What “word” did He speak to them that made them clean? Anyone?
are from a poorly documented time
How do you know the the NT books and letters were poorly documented?
with little external corroboration
Millions have been changed from the inside out through His message as recorded in the NT. What form of external corroboration are you seeking?
Jesus said if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.
John 1:1, 3, 14, 17, 18 “In the beginning was the Word; the Word was in God’s presence and the Word was God…. Through him all things came into being, and apart from him nothing came to be….
"I and the Father are one.”
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!"
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Who else said these things about himself and had those words spoken about and to Him?
You had just said accuracy was important and now it isn’t?
The personal, life changing experience you keep talking about.
The point isn’t they are irreconcilable. People can reconcile anything. The point is they weren’t accurately reported. But I guess since your requirement for accuracy is “none” then it doesn’t matter. Do you also accept the Gospel of Thomas since it contains some sayings of Jesus that match those of the Q source?
The greek, logos, usually means " reasoning expressed by words" so it means all the things Jesus has said to them. Things even you have admitted weren’t all written down. So how can we know what Jesus actually said in total?
Thanks Bill. Good questions. I can clear up the confusion very easily and I will. In all fairness I think if you would first point out where Malcolm X thanked Allah for his deliverance from addiction, we will go from there.
Sorry, I no longer have my copy of Malcolm’s autobiography but I did find this.
Is that sufficient?
Quote a hundred or so, if you don’t mind. Malocolm X is one of my heroes.
They ask me how I feel
And if my love is real
And how I know I’ll make it through
And they, they look at me and frown,
They’d like to drive me from this town,
They don’t want me around
'Cause I believe in you
They show me to the door,
They say don’t come back no more
'Cause I don’t be like they’d like me to,
And I walk out on my own
A thousand miles from home
But I don’t feel alone
'Cause I believe in you
I believe in you even through the tears and the laughter,
I believe in you even though we be apart
I believe in you even on the morning after
Oh, when the dawn is nearing
Oh, when the night is disappearing
Oh, this feeling is still here in my heart
Don’t let me drift too far,
Keep me where you are
Where I will always be renewed
And that which you’ve given me today
Is worth more than I could pay
And no matter what they say
I believe in you
I believe in you when winter turn to summer,
I believe in you when white turn to black,
I believe in you even though I be outnumbered
Oh, though the earth may shake me
Oh, though my friends forsake me
Oh, even that couldn’t make me go back
Don’t let me change my heart,
Keep me set apart
From all the plans they do pursue
And I, I don’t mind the pain
Don’t mind the driving rain
I know I will sustain
'Cause I believe in you
Dylan
"For me, at the time, it felt like an enormous relief, a lifting of burden, a sense of connecting with the universe in a way I never had before. Very powerful!” “At that point Jesus became not only my Lord and Savior, but also my best friend and closest ally.” “Jesus was my model of self-giving love…” Dr. Ehrman
There is no comparison. Over and over you find born from above Christians barely able to restrain their love and appreciation for what Jesus has done in and for them, personally.
When anyone with an open mind takes all the testimonies down through the ages into serious consideration, no one compares. That is the point. How does that happen? Go look. Look hard. Look thoroughly. See what you find.
A totally unexpected act of unspeakable violence that shocked the community to its core. That pretty much describes the crucifixion and the earliest followers of Jesus.
Seriously have you read all the testimonies from every faith to determine that this is true?
Your Ehrman quote might have applied to his teen years but I get the feeling he has changed based on what he says in Misquoting Jesus.
Bart was a student of the Late Great Bruce Metzger and was very much in the “inerrant” side of the argument. I believe he may have lost his faith when he realized that the bible did have errors (translation errors) and contradictions ( at least the possibility of them). He became agnostic and, IMO, saw the market for a Theologian of his stature to be on the “other side” of the argument.
I asked you to offer testimonies of others.
I am persuaded by the testimonies from Christians that Christ is real.
How did Bart experience the wonders of the born from above relationship which formed through receiving Christ that matches millions of others? What shook his life has shaken the lives of countless others in the same way; people who never heard of him and had no idea anything would take develop in a similar fashion, report the same kinds of phenomenon. How does that kind of thing happen over and over and over in people with no expectations at all?
He said he left Christ because of all the evil in the world not because he found the bible had what he considered to be errors. He never renounced his born again experience as a product of his imagination as far as I know. He never said it wasn’t real or profound or life-changing and gripping and revolutionary, to my knowledge.
What Bart describes took place in his heart and life has been replicated countless times. It strikes me how strange it is that such amazing experiences shared by so many for two thousand years, leaves secular scientists without asking how that could happen and investigating it very carefully.
If I developed a drug that produced the same reaction in millions of people, scientists would announce its efficacy.
I don’t think it was unexpected at all. A suffering servant wasn’t what many of Jesus’ followers expected but as for his execution I think the record shows the writing was clearly on the wall before it occurred. Jesus definitely seems to have known and that is without supernatural knowledge.To think that none of his followers saw this coming as well is a tough pill to swallow.
Jesus knew. His mother knew. Saint Thomas also. That’s about it. When he tried to explain his upcoming execution to his disciples Peter objected. The resurrection also was unexpected.
Yet, his works the criticize how “misquoted” Jesus was and how full of errors the bible is, kind of say otherwise.
Bart isn’t certain that one word as recorded in the NT that Jesus spoke can actually be attributed to him. You can’t misquote someone if you don’t know what he said, imo.
Devils believe. They are in rebellion, yet even they know and recognize truth. We can stare at truth, be ensconced in truth, quote truth, and reject it.
Did Christ say, “blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy”
“blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted”