I’m not going to let you get away with that! Again, the belief that Alli is suggesting is not, “deism”. Deism is the idea that a creator unleashed the universe with no involvement after the Big Bang. This god doesn’t care what happens in the universe, he has no intent, doesn’t listen to prayers and has no role or purpose for humans. A believer, say a Christian, holding that God created nature to evolve humans, with no active, “interventions” in nature to accomplish that does not amount to deism, as I’ve written here before.
Let’s recap what a Christian theist believes. With any faith in the scriptures, someone like Francis Collins or Denis Lamoureux believes that God performed miracles, big and small, in the OT and NT eras, put Jesus in the womb of a virgin, inspired humans to say and/or record His thoughts, willed prophets to predict the future, rose Jesus from the dead, aided the Israelites in battles, and answered many prayers along the way, for the purpose of promoting His kingdom. Today, we believe that God still answers prayers, and that, at least IMO, could include causing a natural disaster. So God IS intimately involved in creation to accomplish his goals, only that some of us hold that this involvement is on a substrate of a miraculous physical creation that has the ability to intelligently evolve without any direct interventions. For me, that’s a display of His love, power, intelligence and creativity.
You could respond by saying that your vision of God being involved in his creation requires him to, “do” something before humans arrived, but not mine and others. Also I’ve noted that you seem to go back and forth on whether God has the ability create a self-sustaining universe, as in following:[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:42, topic:35661”]
as a deistic, closed system that reaches his goals simply by the outworking of initial conditions and laws, is as logically impossible as his making it both spherical and cubic. Maybe he could make such a universe…[/quote]
I’ll read your must-read link and have read others that you’ve posted, including the one about one of Jupiter’s, I believe, moons who’s chaotic orbit and can be 1 of 5 orbits at any time. I don’t know about you, Jon, but the God I have faith in can know which orbit it will be, even if evolved homo sapiens in 2017 can’t. Similarly, I don’t have any angst from the, “macro effects of quantum indeterminacy”, as if we have exhausted our knowledge of quantum mechanics. These arguments to me are merely, “God of the gaps” arguments. You say the evidence is that God couldn’t have created the self-sustaining universe, but is that really too difficult for the God of the bible?
I’ll give you credit for acknowledging that you yourself used emotive language at one particular point in your post, but I would say that the whole post was expressed rather emotively, no less by even using the words, “deistic” and, “deism”.
To summarize, one can believe in a warm, loving, sacrificial and purposeful, as well as omniscient and omnipotent God, while holding that he initiated a universe capable of evolving humans on its own.