The Exodus and Passover

A problem is a matter of opinion.

@Henry,

Yep… just like having trees with MORE tree rings than the 5000 years that the Evangelicals say is the age of the Earth …

“Prometheus (recorded as WPN-114) was the oldest known non-clonal organism, a Great Basin bristlecone pine (Pinus longaeva) tree growing near the tree line on Wheeler Peak in eastern Nevada, United States. The tree, which was at least 4862 years old and possibly more than 5000, was cut down in 1964…”

By best Biblical estimates, the global Flood of Genesis occurred around 2290 BC…
Assuming the tree sprouted in the year of the Flood, it would have survived 4,154 years until 1964:

2290

  • 1964 = 4,154 Total Years

So the tree would have existed 708 years LONGER than the Earth!

George,

You are putting words into my mouth. I never said that I believe in YEC, and I have never believed that view. I have always believed in Progressive Creationism or in Evolutionary Creationism. I still believe that the Exodus did happen. It is your Unitarian-Universalist views that will not let you see this. Even Joseph Priestley would be more conservative than you. I have no problem with an old universe and the fact that the Exodus and Passover did take place. Sir, do not try to make me a YEC. You will fail every time. Also, I will continue to believe in the Exodus history and the Trinity too. I wish to make one other statement. You are misusing the term evangelical. Billy Graham is an evangelical and believes in the possibility of theistic evolution too. Also, let us examine the views of Benjamin Warfield of Princeton Theological Seminary before you use this term. There are also moderate and liberal evangelicals.

@Henry,

I don’t think you are interpreting my thoughts very well.

My Unitarian/Universalist views are the RESULT of my assessment of Biblical events… not the cause of them.

You can accept the Exodus story if you like … but you have to construct a hybrid scenario which explains how the Exodus story fits into the Palestinian timeline AFTER 1130 BCE.

Surely you don’t think you should just accept a timeline that contradicts known historical information, right ?

Really? I’m pretty sure that’s not the case. Which two pillars would be “non-essential” for the structural integrity of the building?

Further, you have explained all kinds of reasons why “something could not/should not be true,” but you have yet to suggest a plausible alternative for the origin of Passover as a nation-defining ritual.

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Seems rather obvious, if you reject the Passover and Exodus from a historical point of view of the Israelites then there is nothing to believe in the Bible, including the New Testament. It all links together.

Starting with Moses, the prophets repeated the command to remember. Without remembering the unification of the Exodus, the people quickly reverted to tribal mindsets in the Promised Land. Reunification under David did not happen just to fight enemies, it happened because enougth of them believed they should be unified.

“Modern” theologians are trying to force the biblical histories to be false histories. Can traditions within the holidays be added or changed later? Of coarse they can and alway have. But do we stop believing in the reason given for this group of people’s existance? Why would they have concocted and believed such a rediculous story when they still feared Egypt?

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[quote=“Jo_Helen_Cox, post:26, topic:4518”]
“Modern” theologians are trying to force the biblical histories to be false histories. Can traditions within the holidays be added or changed later?[/quote]

Sure, but I’m not really understanding how something like this could “become” central and defining. I mean, how does that happen?

How do priests (or would-be priests) in exile in Persia take an existing ceremony that has something to do with harvest (or something else?) and say, no, now this refers to our very formation and this is what defines us as free people…

…how long would it take to get people to buy that, and how would even “take” to begin with?

I don’t know…maybe I’m just too skeptical… :wink:

This is the classic Evangelical position - - you have to believe ALL SORTS OF THINGS … or you can’t believe in anything …

If the Priestly families, funded by Persian treasure, return to Jerusalem to re-establish a (Pro-Persian) religious center … all they have to do is bring a bunch of their hand-crafted writings with them to Jerusalem … and say THIS IS WHAT YOU FORGOT because your king and priests were forced into Exile.

George

How do you even come with it? It’s not like you’re going to get every exile to come to a fabricate consensus. That strains credulity.

This group had the backing of the Persian crown. Do you think ANYONE got to be a part of the installation? As it was, I believe there was some effort to get ENOUGH people to come.

Nehemia/Ezra spends quite a bit of time talking about DRIVING OUT people who had inter-married… which would be quite a goodly number for sure …

Do you know the joke told by Jewish people about themselves about two Jews in a room?

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Good job.
@@Jo_Helen_Cox

Good statement

I have not seen where the timeline of the Exodus is contrary to anything. Some believe that the Exodus was 1290 BC under Ramases; others believe that the Exodus took place in 1445 BC under Tutmose. I have not problem with the earlier date. Gleason Archer, a graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary, accepted the 1445 BC date. You are a nice guy George; however, I do not agree with you. In any case, you have a right to feel as you do. The time of the Exodus has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus does.

Absolutely … that’s why I don’t care whether there was really an Exodus or not.

Are you familiar with the vast number of references to the Exodus in Jesus’ ministry–by John the Baptist, Paul, etc.? It would be like establishing the legitimacy of the U.S. President by analogy to Luke Skywalker.

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Not to quibble, but feelings are irrelevant. They are transitory. Opinions matter more. Facts still more.

I believe there was; however, your point is valid. Take care, George. Don’t forget me tomorrow. I will be at the doctor’s tomorrow about this eye infection. Even though we may disagree at times, you are not a bad guy. Have a great week.

Your friend in Virginia,

Charles

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See how our approaches continue to be reversed? You refuse to modify your thoughts on Exodus because of Jesus … and it is the actual circumstances of Exodus that help me view Jesus.

He SPAT into dust and smeared MUD into the eyes of a man with vision problems. Just more evidence that Jesus did NOT know all things… including his ignorance about “germ theory”.

@gbrooks9, @Christy

This is still a land of Freedom of Religion. Unitarian and Trinitarian Christians helped to formulate this. I disagree with George; however, I still respect his views even though they are different from mine. Even though I disagree with George, he does have a right to believe as he does. My question to you is this: Would you rather live in secular atheistic North Korea or Freedom of Religion America? I would like to see your answer. George is not a bad man; he just disagrees with us. That is his right. We can disagree with him too. That is also our right.

Charles E. Miller, BA in German, Old Dominion University; MA in Religion, Liberty University School of Religion

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