Reviewing Adam and the Genome

@TedDavis

Hey, I like that !!!

Thanks @TedDavis.

I would emphasize that the scientific part of the AIG interpretation is not traditional. Moreover, the insistence that a particular interpretation of Genesis is foundational to the Gospel is not a traditional interpretation. Instead, we see a large range of ideas in the early Church about these things, when one gets into the particular, but it is never a defining part of the community till much later.

It’s not my position anymore. My only point in bringing it up was to illustrate a teaching that I think is prevalent in some less academic circles.

@aleo , @Christy

oyyyy

The soul is delivered to humans by God. He decides when to stamp souls with the “Sin” stamp.

As most Eastern Orthodox communities assert, Adam was the first to sin, but all of his heirs inherited the normal flaws of a mortal body, and inevitably sinned in their own ways in their own time.

I feel, as you say, that creation was revealed to man in six days. I have not Biblical or scientific support for this, it just makes a lot of sense to me. The timeline at which creation was brought into existence was not important to the message of the Bible, just that that it was created by Elohim.

And here is the final installment. It is a two parter.

From @DennisVenema:

And from McKnight:

I almost agree with McKnight that…

Before I move on I raise an alarm: no one in the reviews seems to care about historical context, either the Ancient Near East or the Jewish world that was contemporary to the apostle Paul.

However I did agree with him. Excluding me from this would have been nice.

Underscoring this point, there were many versions of Adam in Paul’s time. In full view of these many Adams, the early Church did not insert one into the historical creeds. We do well, then, to remember that the traditional marker of orthodoxy is the historicity of Jesus and the Resurrection, not Adam, and a confession that He rose from the dead (Rom. 10:9).

These points aside, I agree with McKnight’s main thesis. Fear not an ambiguous Adam; find confidence in the lucid clarity of Jesus.

I would also add that I agree with McKnight’s assessment of Paul’s views of Adam, that Paul things that Adam was genealogical. And that Adam is not necessary to understand Jesus.

Also, it seems that he thinks that I am arguing against Venema’s science (unless he just skipped over me again).


Regarding @DennisVenema thanks for your thoughts. I would just caution that there are several ways to resolve your discomfort with non-Adamic beings, and point you to CS Lewis’s work on this. Also, I am not advocating for this specific model, per se, but pointing out that it is a formal possibility. Maybe Adam and Eve were later, maybe they didn’t exist. Who knows. You certainly cannot tell from science that Paul was wrong in his understanding of Adam.

There is really nothing different about this model and those that @LorenHaarsma, Francis Collins, Denis Alexander have proposed, except that I’ve highlighted that this is compatible with a genealogical Adam. It is not as far an outlier as you might think.

For my part, I agree wholeheartedly with everything @DennisVenema and Scot McKnight have written in their responses. I don’t believe Dennis said that inserting Adam into the flow of human history 6,000 (give or take a few thousand) years ago was an “outlier” of an idea. What he said was that it was “horrific” and “ad hoc”. I wouldn’t have chosen “horrific” myself, but I might have if you caught me on the wrong day …

@Jay313 and @Swamidass,

I think @DennisVenema will get used to the idea … as long as he doesn’t have to describe the scenario in detail. :smiley:

The challenge is how to get YEC’s to open up the Geologies of their mind … so that Earth can be billions of years old, and that life was evolving millions of years ago, and that Adam’s kinship group would be a logical way to tie all the lose threads together!

Great discussion, and our thanks, @Swamidass, for bring it to our attention and putting it together.

I particularly enjoyed McKnight’s thoughts on concordism, and the effort to interpret scripture giving it primacy in it’s cultural, historical, and textual context, rather than forcing our preconceptions on it, impossible a task though it may be.

His closing remarks also hit home with the observation that boxing the BIble into a rigid interpretation is the surest way to force the scripture into an errant position.

I suspect space constraints limited their comments, but the series as a whole enhanced my appreciation of their book.

4 Likes

Personally, I am not really concerned to try to change the minds of YEC believers who are secure in their faith and beliefs. McKnight took the words right out of my mouth when he said, “Those who want to debate the science can do so but I have crossed that threshold and am not likely to go back.”

It is my opinion that we should not be wasting time or energy trying to change the minds of firmly convinced YEC Christians. Instead, we should be ministering to those whose faith has been damaged (or destroyed) by the false dichotomy of “the Bible or evolution.”

2 Likes

I agree, but would add that the real at risk group seems to be those who grow up YEC and then are thrust out into the world of new ideas with that mindset, and wind up rejecting the faith. We need to let them know there are alternatives before they make that decision.

3 Likes

@Jay313

Evangelical networks are where the “victims” are most easily found … much in the way the ex- Mormons are frequently found hovering around Mormon websites.

The pollsters put things in perspective… BioLogos is essentially a branch of the Evangelical network… because we supporters forcefully promote God’s role in our lives … as well as in our biologies.

It is unreasonable to think those who have never been interested in God would suddenly develop an interest in God just because we attach Evolution to the idea.

1 Like

And vice versa. Our labor is the vast field, ready for harvest, that lies between these two boundary markers. Pray that the Lord of the harvest should send workers …

1 Like

I tend to agree with this assessment. There are so many YECs that have already concluded that no amount of evidence can change their minds. However, is it worth trying to convince YECs that it is possible to be a genuine, Bible-believing Christian while still accepting evolution? I have my doubts about this possibility, but is it worth pursuing at all?

In your local sphere of influence, if you live as follower of Christ it will sure make them wonder.

I do not think the goal is to talk YECs out of YEC. This, I think is misguided and unproductive.

However, it is critical to pursue the second aim: “convince YECs that it is possible to be a genuine, Bible-believing Christian while still accepting evolution”. This is best done with relationships, not arguments. With explanations, not polemics. With appeals to unity, not division. With respect, not contempt.

The Church of all believers is not meant to divide on these issues. Our division here causes injury to people, and it needs to come to an end.

4 Likes

@jay313 & @cwhenderson

Gentlemen, please…

It’s not so much the die-hard YEC’s that we are trying to reach … but the YEC network is where our “clients” live . . . Can we see the difference between the individual - - and the communication channels we use to find the individuals?

Certainly all true. And as more Evangelical Christians in both the pews and the pulpits are willing to say, out loud, that they accept evolution, this problem could lessen. However, it also could become worse if Evangelicals who accept evolution remain silent or “vote with their feet” and leave.

There is another angle, too. The other day I had an idea for a short essay called, “To the YEC parent …” It’s really just a thought experiment. I want these parents to imagine their son or daughter coming to them one day and announcing that evolution is certainly true, and what’s more, they can no longer believe in a literal Adam or a literal Noah or a literal tower of Babel. Now, in those circumstances, which is preferable: 1) Reject Christ and become an atheist, or 2) Reject the literal interpretation and remain in Christ?

For all of those YEC parents who chose option 2, it’s time to tone down the all-or-nothing rhetoric about evolution and the literal interpretation of early Genesis, because the statistics say that nearly half of such parents will face exactly this dilemma one day, possibly very soon.

You wouldn’t understand this running in Unitarian circles, but those of us who attend Evangelical churches don’t have to search these people out online, George.

2 Likes

@Jay313,

I spent 8 years of my life “running with the Nazarenes” - - so I’m not quite sure I’m following your point.

Let me try my point again: while it sometimes looks like various BioLogos supporters and officers are trying to change the minds of a die-hard YEC . . . this illusion is facilitated by the fact die-hard YEC’s are the ones who parachute onto these boards … and do hand-to-hand combat regarding truth.

But sending information into the communication channels of Evangelical schools and publications is still the best way to find the Evangelical “hangers-on”, those who are half-hearted, those who are conflicted, those who have large extended families that are Evangelical.

And this is because of one basic truth: agnostics and people who are disinterested in God aren’t regular attendees at church like in the good ol’ days - - where you went to church whether you wanted to or not!

Side note: it was during these 8 years of running with the Nazarenes that I got to spend 3 uninterrupted years debating with Karl Giberson in his dorm about the inescapable truth of Evolution. Nothing I said made a dent. It wasn’t until Karl got his advanced degree in physics and became a physics professor that he saw there was no way to defend Henry Morris’ books and Young Earth Creationism.

2 Likes