Refuting Compromise: The Troubling Tone of Creationism


#55

The evidence all around us demonstrates that the creation story in the beginning of Genesis is not a historical record. If you insist on claiming that Genesis can only be a historical record, then you are implying that the Bible is false since the evidence demonstrates that a literal Genesis (in the YEC sense) is false.

I also see no reason why a person who experiences God could only write a literal historical record, and nothing else. Just look at all of the Psalms. Are those supposed to be literal accounts of literal events? Look at the parables that Jesus taught. The claim that everything in the Bible is either literal or false is a rather narrow and unnecessary view.[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:52, topic:36755”]
How do you know that I have not looked at it from the other end?
I’ve been at this following Jesus thing for 40 and a half years (I started in my late teen years). I did my undergrad in physics, and am a journeyman sheet metal mechanic. I’m also a stage 4 metastatic melanoma survivor, living with my cancer for over 30 years now. I have further spent 14 years discussing the bible with atheists/agnostics since October 2003.
Moreover—
My entire daily world is highly practical, and solving real world problems.
[/quote]

Then why would you adopt an interpretation of the Bible that is contradicted by almost everything we know about in science? That seems like the most impractical approach I can think of.[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:52, topic:36755”]
As for your comment on interpretation, I have long found this a curious statement. Are you someone who believes that words used in everyday society suddenly take on a magical, or somehow unknowable, or unreliable set of meanings, solely when they are used in the bible?
[/quote]

There is your black/white worldview again. Why can’t it be both? Why can’t some words be literal and some be metaphorical or allegorical? Why does it have to be all one or all the other?[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:52, topic:36755”]
Before I go, I’d like to know how you interpret the following statement.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe in him would not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world but that through him the world might be saved.
[/quote]

It is a literal description of the tenets of Christian theology.

How do you interpret this passage?

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Does this mean that the Bible is an actual lamp? Should I be able to fix a Bible to the front of my car and be able to see where I am driving at night? If a Bible does not self-illuminate, does this mean the Bible is false?


(Steve Buckley) #56

Wow… so… actual scientific research, done by academic and research physicists is foolishness?

Moffatt is not from ICR, AiG, etc… The guy is a cosmologist. Not a cosmetologist. Cosmology is the academic study of the cosmos. It’s a sub-topic of astrophysics.

How does this work in your world?


Fossils: Evidence of evolution or evidence of a global flood?
(Steve Buckley) #57

I don’t think there is a comparison. From what I’ve read however, God did invite Abraham into communion, letting him experience what it’d be like to offer one’s own son. Genesis 18-22.

I wasn’t however making any kind of a comparison here. I was asking the person I responded to how they read/interpret the given statement by Jesus.
Please G.
Don’t clip things to support your biases. It’s unbecoming someone of intelligence. It’s further irritating because it is a standard practice of the atheists I’ve been talking with on the internet for the past 14+ years.


(Steve Buckley) #58

Really?
I see the evidence all around us as demonstrative of a creative intelligence, of superior power, intellect, wisdom, insight, perspective, understanding, and several other adjectives which show a superlative nature beyond comprehension. Or… as the Psalmist says— the heavens declare the glory of God…

I find this rather amusing that you are using an hypothesis to base your opinions of the bible on.
As stated, I’ve been reading the bible for just over 40 years now, have studied physics, and while I wholeheartedly dismiss evolution, there are dozens of questions I have, and have chosen to set them aside (not as unimportant, but as tertiary to issues of greater importance), so I can continue to learn more about the God whom I trust in.
YEC, whatever you think it is, is something I consider something of a misnomer.

Easy.
Moses spent 40 days with God, came down, broke up an orgy, and bachanal-style party, only to go up, and spend another 40 days with God. And while the narrative is scant, it’s pretty clear that he spent a lot of time talking about a whole lot more than just God’s carving up 2 tablets with 10 commands.
I do think that Moses cleared up the issue of this though near the end of Deuteronomy, chapter 29, vs 29.
God has kept plenty of things secret, but has given us what we need to live a life honorable towards him— for us, and our descendants throughout all generations.

What I think is cool however is that God did not close the door of learning for us, but swung it wide open, so that we don’t have to remain in the proverbial dark. According to Proverbs 25:2, we read that it’s the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search them out.
We further read in Psalm 25, vs 14, that God shares his secrets with those who fear him. And we further read that he delights in those who fear him (Ps. 147:11).

I see no reason to believe that the narrative in the bible is anything other than literal records of literal events. It may indeed use a form of poetry, or narrative unknown to us in today’s modern world of high tech, and literary conciseness. But to me, and untold millions of others, we’ve not yet found reason to discount it.

The thing I find curious, and the reason i stated what I did regarding the all or nothing approach has to do with the fact that there’s much of earth’s history we are simply unaware of. So to claim that just because the bible leaves us with more questions than answers, it cannot be taken literally, is foolish, and hubristic to the nth degree.

Just because you trust what you call science does not make it accurate. It simply means that there are some people out there with incredible imaginations, and they’ve conflated their imaginings with legitimate scientific investigation, and findings.

Science is about observation. Interpreting those findings obtained through observation is a philosophical construct. One which requires either facts not known, or imagination, to fill in the gaps.

You didn’t answer my question. How about actually answering my question, so I can decide how to accurately respond to your answer, and continue forward.

It’s not rocket science, nor is it a trick question. It’s simply stated, and requires an honest answer, so I can know which direction to go next. IF you want me to take you seriously, then you have to take me equally seriously. If not, then we can stop right here and now. [quote=“T_aquaticus, post:55, topic:36755”]
It is a literal description of the tenets of Christian theology.

How do you interpret this passage?

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Does this mean that the Bible is an actual lamp? Should I be able to fix a Bible to the front of my car and be able to see where I am driving at night? If a Bible does not self-illuminate, does this mean the Bible is false?
[/quote]

Curious… so not only do you not answer my question, you turn it back to me. Come on T! Answer the question already. Did it ever occur to you that if evolution is real, and death originates prior to some creative event, that this statement (John 3:16-17) is based on a false premise?
Let’s take this a step further. PAul, in Romans 5 says that death entered the world because Adam sinned. This means that there was no death prior to the incident in the garden, where Adam ate the fruit. Paul further elaborates on the idea in Romans 8, saying the whole creation groans and travails in agony, waiting the redemption of the sons of God.
I.e., all of creation was subjected to this misery by Adam and his sin

Ok, moving on…
Ever read Ezekiel? I’m reading it right now, for my morning readings.
In chapter 43, we read the following.

2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory.

I find this interesting, and helps me to get a better picture of Genesis 1:3, where it states that God said let their be light, and there was light… 3 whole days prior to the sun/moon/stars being created.
For the first time, it helps clarify the idea— God’s Word IS Light. Especially when we read in 1 John 1, that God is light, and in him there is no darkness.
So… yes. I do indeed believe that God’s Word is a lamp, and light. It illumines our way through life, so we can see clearly.

So, to help here… I’ve always been taught that the bible is the best way of interpreting the bible.
I.e., it interprets itself. But you’re not going to find all the answers in a single paragraph, or a single chapter of a single sub-book. As one teacher I’m familiar with states— the book of revelation contains over 800 allusions to the old testament.
I.e., you want to understand revelation— read the old testament.
If you want to understand, you’ve got to read. Not once, twice, or even just a few times. And reading alone doesn’t cut it either. Reading and prayer.

As for the poorly thought out joke about mounting a bible to the front of your car…
It’s not a physical light which can be used like that. It is however a light which shows us our sin, in God’s Perspective. It’s a light which sheds truth on lies, falsehoods, etc… It’s a light which gives us hope, when we believe it, against the darkness of life’s griefs, pains, and losses.


(Steve Buckley) #59

Here’s a novel thought for you.
We read in Exodus that Moses spent 80 days with God. Do you really think that they just sat there watching God carve 2 tablets, and then Moses carving two tablets? Do you really think it took 40 days for God’s finger to write out 10 commandments?


#60

Have you seen how slow 3D printers operate?


(Steve Buckley) #61

Good morning Bill.

Here’s an article tying decay rates back to the variations of the rotation of the sun’s core.

And another, showing that the speed of light is in the numerator of the equation.

http://www.setterfield.org/Radiometric_Dating.html

And you’ll have to pardon the dated articles.
I’m working from memory on this issue, dating back to the early 00’s, in my physics classes.


(Steve Buckley) #62

Actually, no. I have worked with others who’ve told me how tediously slow they are, and I watched them on video, in their early days.

Nice attempt at sarcasm though.
Man-made devices are man-made, not God-made.
In 2012 I ran across some articles showing a stellar nursery, where 720 stars came into existence, within a single year.
That’s an average of 2 stars/day.
So, since the old, uniformitarian theory says it took millions, to billions of years for the sun to form, and yet scientists found evidence that 720 came into existence within a year, it strikes me that what people call science is wrong.
I think God sat down with Moses, and showed him a lot of the history of the cosmos. I think for 2 simple reasons.
1- God wants us to understand.
2- to get Moses’ take.

Mostly because of this very issue that people are arguing about.
Moses responds,
God, I get that you want to make all this known, but don’t you think it’s a lot to take in? Then, what about those who get overwhelmed by it all, and get bogged down in the details, and miss the rest of your plan, on how we’re going to live. Wouldn’t it be better to let us focus on how we’re to live, and leave this really incredible stuff for future generations to learn, and come to understand?
We are after all talking about a bunch of newly freed slaves, who are more caught up in the here and now, and less concerned about the eternal, and cosmos.

It’s this which brought me to the realization that had God detailed the creation of the cosmos, Genesis 1:1 alone would be a 10 million volume, 1000 page/volume compendium of physics, math, biophysics, chemistry, quantum mechanics, etc…, and our finest minds would spend entire lifetimes bogged down, unable to fathom the complexity, and comprehensiveness of it all.
Even Richard Feynmann said that if anyone tells you that they understand quantum mechanics they’re lying to you.
And in his day, he was the go to man of quantum mechanics.
It took thousands of years before people like Isaac Newton, Gallileo, Euler, Kuyper, etc… began to recognize the complexity, and simplicity of nature’s existence, and structure.
It’s only been in the last 130 years that we’ve been able to bring technology about.

Personally, I think that people who actually believe science knows what they’re doing are deluded.
Scientists are simply on the forefront of learning, not knowledge. And most of our scientific discoveries are sheerly by accident. Like a kid running through the forest, and trying not to stumble over the stuff on the ground, only to miss the rock he stumbles over, and discovering that there’s gold right under their nose.


#63

I’m sorry. Much of the work you put into your response could’ve been saved if I’d used the :slight_smile: emoji earlier.

FWIW - It’s not sarcasm. It’s better classified as ‘droll humor’.


#64

This article says the changes are very small and would not change the dates generated by C14 dating. The changes are also small back and forths so even if they are real they would cancel out over time.

Actually what is in the article is

But no where do I see any equations in this article and in all the places I have seen radiometric dating equations “c” is never included. Such as the first article you provided.

And then Setterfield says

Down the page I did see this:

Setterfield seems to have neglected the tremendous amounts of heat released if decay rates are increased the amount needed to fit the radiometric dates to 6,000 years. The RATE group realized that the only way to get around this was to appeal to a miracle.

@Steve_Buckley you want to try again?


(Steve Buckley) #65

HI Bill.
Nope. As stated, I’m working from 13-18 yr old memories.
Moreover, I’m not trying to win an argument.
I’m stating that I don’t have a problem with God’s having spoken the cosmos into existence, and done so in the Yom time cycles of 6 yom.
I further prvoided information which may not have definitively proven anything, it does give rise to the question of whether evolution is reliable. I think it’s a lie. Something that makes people doubt God’s truthfulness.
Which is quite evident here.


(Chris Falter) #66

Hi Steve,

In a post way earlier in this thread, I explained how Moffat’s VSL hypothesis still leads to the conclusion that the universe is 13.78 billion years old. After I brought my analysis to your attention a second time, you said you would take a look.

You still have not responded. Instead, you claim that you have already won the debate.

Your behavior is quite curious, Steve. You completely ignore the other side of the argument, yet you claim to have won a debate. Truly curious.


(Chris Falter) #67

The “nursery” creates blue stars, but our sun is a yellow star which was formed by different processes.

Also, do you know how many stars are in the universe?


#68

@Steve_Buckley

In looking over your posts the information your provided is basically your interpretation of Scripture which does not address evolution. You are certainly free to believe evolution is a lie, but what God’s creation tells us is it is most likely true. I totally disagree that evolution makes people doubt God’s truthfulness. To me it shows His immense creative efforts and shows His glory in the natural world.


#69

Surely such a view allows for evolution, an old Earth, and a lack of a recent global flood, does it not?[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:58, topic:36755”]
I find this rather amusing that you are using an hypothesis to base your opinions of the bible on.
[/quote]

The age of the Earth, the geologic history of the Earth, and the natural history of biology are not hypotheses. This is knowledge backed by mountains of evidence.[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:58, topic:36755”]
Moses spent 40 days with God, came down, broke up an orgy, and bachanal-style party, only to go up, and spend another 40 days with God. And while the narrative is scant, it’s pretty clear that he spent a lot of time talking about a whole lot more than just God’s carving up 2 tablets with 10 commands.
I do think that Moses cleared up the issue of this though near the end of Deuteronomy, chapter 29, vs 29.
God has kept plenty of things secret, but has given us what we need to live a life honorable towards him— for us, and our descendants throughout all generations.
[/quote]

Does that require a rejection of evolution and science as a whole?[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:58, topic:36755”]
I see no reason to believe that the narrative in the bible is anything other than literal records of literal events.
[/quote]

The mountains of evidence found in the sciences are not a reason?[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:58, topic:36755”]
So to claim that just because the bible leaves us with more questions than answers, it cannot be taken literally, is foolish, and hubristic to the nth degree.
[/quote]

The universe around us has answered lots of questions, so why ignore them? If your interpretation of the Bible conflicts with the facts found in the Creation, what then?[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:58, topic:36755”]
Just because you trust what you call science does not make it accurate. It simply means that there are some people out there with incredible imaginations, and they’ve conflated their imaginings with legitimate scientific investigation, and findings.
[/quote]

What imaginings? The nested hierarchy is very real. The correlation of phylogenies based on morphology and genetics is very real. The 200,000+ orthologous endogenous retroviruses shared by humans and chimps is very real. The fossils with a combination of ape and human features are very real. None of this is imagined, and it all points to evolution and shared ancestry.[quote=“Steve_Buckley, post:58, topic:36755”]
Did it ever occur to you that if evolution is real, and death originates prior to some creative event, that this statement (John 3:16-17) is based on a false premise?
[/quote]

So the reason you reject the findings of science is because they contradict your interpretation of the Bible?


(Steve Buckley) #70

Why?
I don’t see/view God as some distant, uninterested, throw-a-clock-together-and-let-it-unwind kind of God.
The God I read about in the bible— very interested, very personal, very motivated to engage his creation, on a personal level. So much so-- that he willingly offered his own son as a sacrifice for our sin.
So… I have to wonder— why would so much personality, and character of himself give so much, and then just throw the proverbial clock out there, and let it unwind? The two ideas strike me as completely incongruous, and incompatible.

No. the evidence doesn’t say billions of years old. The evidence simply is. It’s a philosophical world view which interprets the evidence to be billions of years old.

Rejection of evolution? Absolutely.
Rejection of science? Not even remotely.
I don’t reject science. Science is simply the observation of events unfolding, and then testing the ideas we formulate to see if they match the events we observe.
So, I have to wonder— what is your idea of what science is?
It’s starting to sound to me that to you, science is some kind of a god, and anyone who rejects it is rejecting god. I have only one God. His name is YHVH. He plainly states in the book he’s inspired to be written by humans who’ve dedicated their lives to him that he created the cosmos. He breathed the stars, and planets into existence. Psalm 33.
He plainly states that he holds it all together by the word of his power- Hebrews 1:2-4.
I get that there are tens of thousands of unanswered questions about such matters in the bible.
But this does not mean that you throw out the bible, and then make up some cock-n-bull cockamamie set of ideas to fit what you think happened, because you don’t understand what really happened.
Whence I come from— you investigate, and learn.

Curious… isn’t it?
I never said I did not believe the evidence. I said that I see the evidence telling a completely different story. Please… read this clearly.
I see the evidence declaring that God himself actually created it— from nothing.

I don’t ignore them. I’ve simply found that unless I can get a hold of, or manufacture a time machine— I will not know, and will have to wait until such a time as when God said he’d make all this known to me, and everyone who follows Jesus. I.e., 1 Corinthians 13:12.
But, as I’ve said to dozens of atheists over the past 14 years— let me know when you get a time machine. I’ll join you, and we can travel back in time to observe either creation, or evolution unfold. Until then— I’m learning to follow Jesus, because THAT’s what I’ll be held accountable for.

Curious again… isn’t it!
Unless evolution happened, no matter what, under any circumstances whatsoever— these things could not possibly have come about by direct creation, for a designed purpose…
Why is that I wonder?
Why did evolution HAVE to be responsible for all of these things?
I actually think there’s purpose, and design in everything that exists. I used to be bothered that I could not explain it. Not so much any more. Everyone who follows Jesus has been promised that one day, God will make it known to us, just as we are known. 1 Cor. 13:12, Hebrews 4:13-15. So, yeah… my focus is on learning what following Jesus actually means, instead of what others tell me it means. We are after all told to— test all things. Abhor that which is evil, and cling to what is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22.

Nope.
I reject what I cannot demonstrate for myself, and am forced to take the claims of others (by faith), with whom I have no familiarity of either their person, or their integrity.
And in all honesty— as someone who’s lived through some pretty bothersome experiences with people— I’ve learned through a lot of pain, grief, heartache, and sadness-- not to just blithely give my trust to others.
As I have neither the time (strange what 65-95 years of life can direct a man to choose), nor the financial resources to test all the claims, I’ve decided that I’m just going to continue to learn what it means to follow Jesus.

Please don’t think that I’ve rejected science. I studied math and physics, and did pretty well at it. I found in my studies that I could actually test everything my professors taught me.
I learned to code in 3 languages, and could test all the things I’ve learned in them.
Each and everything I’ve undertaken in life, I’ve found that during my instruction phases, I had to take by faith what I initially learned, and believe, so as to apply those things. As I applied them, I found them to be true, and reliable. There were also many things I’ve tested, tried applying, and could not verify. Those things I’ve found to be lies.

You know something else— no where, have I ever found ongoing evolution of species. Oh… except in the movies. I really love the X-men series. Great evolutionary plots. but none of them actually exist.
I presently work in the construction industry. Every day, 5-6 days a week, I meet men and women who say how much they’d like to have a 3rd hand, or a second set of arms and hands. Or be able to stretch their existing arms to reach farther than just less half their height.
No nubs, or bumps on their sides, where future arms would grow. And yet, in spite of all this, you know what I do see---- humanity’s ability to create and design new tools and technology to overcome the limitations imposed by having only two arms/hands. And I have to say— I’ve seen, and used some seriously impressive tech. Tech that did not exist 10-20 years ago.
With the code that I’ve either created, or had assistance creating, I’ve done repetitive tasks in less than 1/10,000 the time I’d previously accomplished those tasks. Daily, I am amazed at how the creative ingenuity of man has done so much.
So… you go right ahead and believe what others tell you. I’m busy proving, verifying, and demonstrating what I’m learning.
To be an evolutionist is to have faith far beyond anything a Jesus follower ever has to possess. I simply don’t have that much faith.


(Chris Falter) #71

I agree with you 100%. So do Christian scientists who accept the theory of evolution. What you have stated gives me reason to reject the atheists who use science as an excuse to avoid God, but it does not give me reason to reject any scientific theory.

I should hasten to add that atheists come in many stripes, and many if not most do not believe that you have to reject God to accept scientific theories such as evolution.

Nope, it’s actually a matter of simple math. One example: Light is reaching us today from galaxies that are about 13 billion light years away. How long has the light been travelling? That’s not a trick question.


(Chris Falter) #72

I also agree 100% with this.


(Chris Falter) #73

This is interesting. What kind of testing have you applied to the 200,000 orthologous endogenous retroviruses shared by the genomes of Pan and Homo Sapiens?


(Lynn Munter) #74

Sorry for my delay in replying to you, the past week has been pretty busy, and I wanted to refamiliarize myself with the details of Exodus in order to properly respond.

I think it’s silly to try and put a timetable on how long it takes for God to convey anything to any given human. Inspiration is a funny business that way.

Otherwise, how could it have taken 40 years for Moses to get the complete set of Laws from God, right up to the end of his life?

I found this article pretty interesting about how the documentary hypothesis sorts out the four separate versions of the Law contained in the Pentateuch. You may not think much of the documentary hypothesis, I don’t know. But there’s a lot of detail about all the laws and commandments God gave Moses, and if God also gave Moses an eyewitness synopsis of the history of the world, it’s very strange that the Pentateuch doesn’t say so.