Primary and Secondary Causes, God through (not vs) Nature, and Gaps are scraps. (Aristotle and Aquinas and Cosmological arguments)

Depends on what sources you use. Much of the contemporary information about Jesus is written in the scriptures that are part of our Bible. For some reason, anything included in the Bible is sometimes classified as not reliable information, while hearsays written by some distant writers are held as valuable information.

Even if we would think that the gospels include coloured stories that were written with a purpose, they are valuable historical sources. No other source can give more reliable information, although the other writings may reveal what the outsiders thought about what was told.

3 Likes

We don’t know even that much. It’s all just probable.

What Jesus’s followers believed after Jesus’s death is not about Jesus. It’s about his followers.

I doubt historians are that biased or naive.

The gospels definitely provide information. Just not the information many think they do.

Can you cite an example?

I have met such attitudes mainly when talking with people who are not experts. They have read some popularized results of form/redaction/xxx criticism. Combined with the opinions that the gospels and the other NT scriptures have been written long after all the eyewitnesses died, the gospels & Acts are interpreted as modified or even invented stories written for the purposes of a church in a later historical situation. The assumption in these cases is that there is oral tradition behind the gospels & Acts but the oral tradition is not reliable or is modified to the current needs (popularized ‘Sitz im Leben’ thinking).

The opinion of a late date for the writing is sometimes supported by the late dates of the known manuscripts. As we do not have the originals or even the earliest copies, the dates of writing remain debated questions. Depending on the worldview, the originals may be claimed to be very early or very late.

1 Like

This is a quite common opinion of internet skeptics hostile to Christianity. You also have Jesus mythicists on the internet who are so hostile and hateful towards Christianity, they have completely detached themselves from reality. Credentialed scholars are not all created equally but they are generally careful.

Vinnie

5 Likes

Just like with any other historical figure — and in fact, Jesus is better documented than most.

The fact that Jesus’ followers claimed to have seen Him resurrected — and that the creed recorded in 1 Corinthians 15 dates to within about five years of His death — is extremely significant, especially after centuries of dismissing such claims as much later forgeries.

Granted, this doesn’t prove the resurrection. But the fact that virtually all contemporary historians agree the disciples genuinely believed they saw the risen Jesus — even if the nature of those experiences remains debated as the resurrection can’t be proven — is telling. It says something about the strength and immediacy of the earliest Christian convictions.

  • The disciples were not expecting a resurrection.

  • At the time of the crucifixion, they fled in fear — yet later, they were willing to die proclaiming that Jesus had risen from the dead (and at least for Paul and Peter we have very strong data to support the truth of their martyrdom, while for many other disciples death we only have Church’s traditions).

In other words, something powerful happened. History, of course, cannot definitively state what happened, nor can it verify a supernatural resurrection. But what we can say with confidence is that the transformation of the disciples, and the early proclamation of the resurrection, are historical facts.

And all of this stands in stark contrast to the vague, ethereal image of Jesus — the one skeptics often portray as a figure we “can’t really know anything about.” The historical data simply doesn’t support that view.

3 Likes

The Third Quest hasn’t exactly been welcomed by many atheists and non-Christians — largely because, unfortunately for them, its conclusions ran directly counter to their expectations.

Far from undermining the Gospels, this wave of scholarship ended up reinforcing their historical credibility (which doesn’t mean proving miracles or the divinity of Jesus, it just means that the idea that the NT is as historically reliable as the Silmarillion is just anti-Christian wishful thinking). As a result, the leap of faith required by Christianity today is far more reasonable and historically grounded than it was previously thought to be — and that’s not something that’s been well received in certain circles.

And that matters — because the scholars behind the Third Quest come from a wide range of religious and non-religious backgrounds. We’re not talking about apologetics here.

The fact that their research ended up producing results that may also be used for apologetics purposes is no one’s fault — it’s simply where the evidence led.

The problem is that evidence is often welcomed only when it appears to contradict faith — or at least when it can be framed that way. This is why, for example, evolution (which I have no issue with, but the fact that it has so often been framed as toxic to the Christian faith has undoubtedly led many to believe they could use it as a tool to undermine Christianity. This, in turn, helps explain why some Christians continue to flatly reject it, despite the clear scientific evidence) has been embraced with open arms, while the Big Bang theory — developed in part thanks to a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, who discovered the Cosmic Microwave Background — was initially treated with suspicion.

In fact, numerous unprovable theories, such as the multiverse, have been proposed largely to neutralize the Big Bang’s compatibility with a divine creative act.

And we see the same pattern in historical research: results are often celebrated only when they point in a certain direction. When they don’t, they tend to be minimized, ignored, or dismissed.

1 Like

I’ve read hundreds of books and scholarly journal articles on the historical Jesus, and while most scholars would agree with a minimal list like you provided, they would still consider the gospels religious documents needed to be carefully vetted for historicity. I’m not sure if that fits “historically reliable”.

Any serious student of the HJ knows of John Meier’s Marginal Jew series. I have a physical copy of his five volumes and of parables, only 4 of them (out of over 30) can be traced back to Jesus with high certainty.

The big picture, that Jesus was a miracle worker, that he spoken parables, etc, is highly certain historically speaking. And that comes through recurrent attestation which is the strongest form in my opinion. If you say the gospels are historically reliable to give us a very broad gist of Jesus then many scholars would agree, but if you mean exactly what he said and did they most likely will disagree if they don’t teach at a seminary.

Not to mention, in the least decade, the criteria of the third quest have come under fire.

Vinnie

2 Likes

I agree with everything you said. What matters most is that Jesus existed, that He was baptized and crucified, and that faith in His resurrection — along with the early Christian communities’ binitarian devotion (see Larry Hurtado) — emerged extremely early, within a very (very) short time after His crucifixion. Another point on which virtually all critical historians agree is that the disciples were genuinely convinced they had seen the risen Jesus (even if for obvious reasons they can’t say whether what they saw was actually real or not).

These are, by far, the most important facts. And the alternative explanations for the birth of belief in the resurrection — such as hallucinations or similar theories (the idea that the apostles simply made it all up has long been discarded) — are so weak, it’s almost laughable.

Of course, if someone holds a dogmatic belief in the nonexistence of God or the impossibility of miracles, then the resurrection of Jesus is off the table by default. But if one is at least open to the possibility of the supernatural, then the resurrection is, by far, the best explanation for what happened after the crucifixion.

And if Jesus truly rose from the dead, then everything else follows. After all, it would be absurd to believe that God — who has the power to overturn death — somehow lacks the power to preserve and communicate the true words of Jesus (or at the very least the most important ones).

As Saint Paul wrote, “If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile” — but if He has been raised, then everything else follows as a consequence.

3 Likes

Of course — that’s exactly what I’ve been saying. The third quest gives (even if certainly wasn’t its intention, it’s been an unintended consequence) strength to the most essential tenet of the Christian faith. That’s not to say it proves it beyond all doubt, but it certainly makes the leap of faith far less irrational or absurd than it was once thought to be.

And that’s the crucial point: when we examine what happened after the crucifixion, the reality of the resurrection emerges as by far the most reliable explanation — unless, of course, one starts from an anti-theistic bias. Because if you begin with the axiomatic assumption that God doesn’t exist, then miracles become impossible by definition. And even when something appears to point in that direction, the response is to dismiss it as ignorance, delusion, or some other natural explanation — no matter how strained.

As I’ve said before, everything else follows from that one central event. I could never believe that the same God who conquered death would somehow be unable to ensure that His message — the true teaching of Christ — was faithfully transmitted through the Gospels.

But let me stress one important point: history, by its very nature, cannot prove the resurrection. Historical inquiry operates under the principle of methodological naturalism — meaning it does not consider supernatural explanations, not because they’re necessarily false, but because they lie outside the scope of its tools and methods.

That doesn’t mean the resurrection isn’t the best explanation for the historical data we have — it very often is and even Dale Allison said as much*. But it does mean that the tools of historical analysis can neither prove nor disprove it. Even John P. Meier — whose work I know intimately — openly states that the resurrection lies beyond the reach of historical investigation, precisely because of the limits imposed by methodological naturalism.

*“If there was no reason to believe that his [Jesus’s] solid body had returned to life, no one would have thought him, against expectation, resurrected from the dead. Certainly visions of or perceived encounters with a postmortem Jesus would not by themselves have supplied such reason.”
— Dale C. Allison Jr., Resurrecting Jesus: The Earliest Christian Tradition and Its Interpreters, p. 324‑325 (T & T Clark, 2005).

“Historical argument alone cannot force anyone to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead; but historical argument is remarkably good at clearing away the undergrowth behind which scepticisms of various sorts have been hiding. The proposal that Jesus was bodily raised from the dead possesses unrivalled power to explain the historical data at the heart of early Christianity.” (N.T Wright Resurrection of the Son of God, p.718).

1 Like
1 Like

Keith is an editor of the book he recommends and was also was a part of the work that tended to ignite these issues or at least popularize them more.

1 Like

This is from the book Goodacre introduced and the one you linked to, in case anyone wants to know what type of book you would be getting into:

We should start by noting a reasonable criticism of the quest as a scholarly enterprise, namely along the lines of “we can’t do historical Jesus study because the data won’t allow a reasonable biographical picture.” This may well be true for some of the quest as conventionally understood, but as we have seen, our hope is that we can reconstruct more about the world of Jesus and the earliest ideas surrounding and about Jesus, which will hopefully shift the debate away from the often futile idea of proving (or disproving) that this or that passage goes back to the historical Jesus.”

And Crossan–who is a 3rd quester-- is famous for claiming criteria are not a method and that criteria have never resulted in any serious consensus. He is the one that said scholarly historical Jesus research is a bit of a scholarly bad joke given all the diverse portraits. They mention Crossan in the intro:

“It might be countered that someone as prominent as (say) Crossan did cover in detail some of the topics raised here—and there would be some validity to this criticism. However, this does not tell the whole story. The previous generation had a golden opportunity to redirect the quest. Rather than repeatedly engage with Crossan on Jesus and Cynicism and his idiosyncratic use of reconstruction of sources and criteria, critical scholarship could have instead focused on the sociohistorical contextualization of Jesus, how socioeconomic changes help explain the emergence of a movement in Galilee, and how certain social processes helped it survive after Jesus’s death. However, the mainstream scholarly reception of Crossan focused not on the socioeconomic reasons for why a movement emerged when and where it did and why it survived but instead, expectedly and arguably encouraged by Crossan himself, on the surface-level events, the controversies over his use of criteria, and whether his liberal, Cynic-like Jesus was the right kind of Jesus or not.20” Excerpt From The Next Quest for the Historical Jesus Chris Keith

Honestly, what I put in bold sounds a heck of a lot like MSU (making “stuff” up) if you apply it to Jesus or the Church. It also seems to assume from outset nothing truly novel could have happened here. I wouldn’t expect much more than a scholarly tour de force from one corner of the historical Jesus market.

3 Likes

I’ll let you know when the book comes out. It will probably be about a year since the manuscript isn’t due until next month.

I would disagree with your interpretation of the evidence. Western Europe has gradually become less Christian, but atheists and even “no religion” aren’t a majority in any country. On top of that, atheists aren’t uniformly materialists, and I seriously doubt many people in either category believe life is meaningless and love is merely a chemical reaction.

No, it’s viewed as health care, and it makes just as much sense within a Christian worldview as any other.

I’m sure that’s true.

2 Likes
  • The quickest way to get me to ignore a book or article is to state: John Dominic Crossnan wrote it or contributed substantially to it.
1 Like

He has no part in this book. I disagreed with his idiosyncratic method but the man was absolutely brilliant. He gets a bad rap being associated with the Jesus seminar but he was a bonafide scholar. He literally said what some of these authors are doing now decades ago.

I am not sure a lot of Christians would make it through the first chapter of the book Goodacre recommended. I am honestly not sure why the first chapter is there. Im not saying the conversation is not valid in another context but I feel they are just using Jesus to market something else. Im mean, this is in a book about the next quest of for the historical Jesus (which isn’t even about Jesus but the social situation of the church):

Not seeing a lot of source and method here but maybe it gets better.

Vinnie

2 Likes

All I need is Galatians 3:28.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus”

1 Like

It does to me but it may not be exactly what you think. I think the quality of our consciousness and state of our soul can be adversely affected by damage to our brains but to me that doesn’t mean they are products of the brain. Damage to the brain has an influence over how they are expressed in our physical manifestation but only as a conduit for something which has its own existence, not as that which produces them. I think of it as similar to talent and our access to it. Just because we cannot access a talent 24/7 at our whim doesn’t mean our talent wasn’t real.

4 Likes

I think this is a perfect answer. It’s also similar to what Dr Greyson and Kelly said in their book “irreducible mind”, where they said that that the standard physicalist assumption —namely that “mind and consciousness are entirely generated by neurophysiological events and processes in the brain” — is insufficient to explain many documented phenomena. They instead advance a “transmission” or “filter” theory of mind‑brain relations, suggesting that the brain does not create consciousness but rather participates in shaping or filtering it.

2 Likes