Pithy quotes from our current reading which give us pause to reflect

Just finished Tom Holland’s “Dominion”, and it did not disappoint. Good all the way to the end as far as I’m concerned, though I think DuMez’s “Jesus and John Wayne” would make a good companion volume to fill in what has happened with cultural Christianity in the U.S. over the last few decades (which only gets attention in the last chapters of Holland’s book.) And he does bring it all the way up well into the 2010s, but by that point in his work, it’s just frosting on the historical cake that already been well-baked with the main body of his work, and he doesn’t delve into the recent phenomena like she does.

A point of interest for me: Holland does not self-identify as a believer, and we learn more about why near the very end of his book. It is there that he confides that his fascination with dinosaurs and fossils and his realization that the vast epochs of history just wouldn’t fit into the biblical narrative as he had received it from his beloved and respected, late Aunty Deb. And as a result he felt his childhood faith just fade away during those years.

Contrast that to this that he provides in the introduction to his book:

The values of Leonidas, whose people had practised a peculiarly murderous form of eugenics and trained their young to kill uppity Untermenschen by night, were nothing that I recognised as my own; nor were those of Caesar, who was reported to have killed a million Gauls, and enslaved a million more. It was not just the extremes of callousness that unsettled me, but the complete lack of any sense that the poor or the weak might have the slightest intrinsic value. Why did I find this disturbing? Because, in my morals and ethics, I was not a Spartan or a Roman at all. That my belief in God had faded over the course of my teenage years did not mean that I had ceased to be Christian.

Holland, Tom. Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World (pp. 16-17). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.

So there it is. A friend of mine wondered if this book might be a good read for his angostic brother who’s very scholarly and into history and has rejected Christianity and all the apologetic fluff that he sees bundled with it. My conclusion is that for people very sensitive to anything that might have a whiff of apologetics about it, this book would probably strike him as being “too obviously Christian” and very Christo-centric in its focus (and therefore of suspicious motivation). And yet on the other side, those whose sniffers are attuned to purify their literature-scape of all heretics - here is an author who is obviously “outside the fold” since he stated himself that he no longer believes what he was taught as a child. Not to mention, that while he spends time showcasing the good things associated with Christianity (and various religions and cults along the way), he also showcases atrocities associated with them all (including Christianity) too. So unfortunately there is plenty of excuse for those from either side of all this to reject his thesis prematurely.

I can’t help but wonder, though, if what he’s walked away from might be something else other than the Christ of the cross. Having read this, I’m seeing the importance of organizations like Biologos to let people know that Christian faith doesn’t only come in one recently-invented shape and size. It comes in messy packages. And always has, as his work does a good job documenting.

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      Joy & Strength

On one web board I was sharp enough with humor that came a micrometer from crossing the line into forbidden discourse that I got asked every now and then to “please skewer so-and-so who is being an idiot”, and if I agreed there was some substance to whack someone with I gleefully launched into scathing comments and remarks. It was only later when I went back to read through part of a thread from a few years before that I realized how cruel I’d been, regardless of how off base the target may have been. Along the line someone asked how many trophies I had on my shelf from high school and college debate contests – because a fair amount of my method was common in debate contests. That made me sit back and think, because I’d competed in debate almost as soon as I’d walked through the high school doors and I did have awards (though mostly ribbons, not trophies) and I did enjoy setting an opponent and then demolishing their position.
I’m still not very good at dialogue as opposed to vicious debate.

I just realized that I have this book under the title Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind on my Nook. I initially thought it was a companion set, but it’s just published under a different title outside the U.S.

In my experience that was the case with darned near all the YEC university students who walked away: they’d been hammered on the point of Genesis as the foundation of the faith but had hardly learned about the Cross. I remember attending church with a couple of guys for two months, and in those two months I never heard an emphasis on the Cross but a lot of YEC preaching, and as I’ve attended various churches with kids I’ve tried to help straighten out their lives the same has been true (sadly to the point where one ‘nondenominational’ preacher gave a Good Friday sermon that barely mentioned the Cross but instead talked about the Resurrection and Ascension as the victory). At the moment I rent a room to a former YEC who turned atheist and have learned that what he remembers most from growing up getting “dragged to church” two or three times a week was “We know the Bible is inspired because the Bible says so”, which when he realized as a high school junior was circular reasoning made him look at other claims such that the scriptures have to be scientifically accurate, and quickly led him to reject everything about Christianity, and through him I’ve met several others who came down that same path – which tells me it isn’t just university students realizing they’ve been lied to but even high school dropouts.

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From a Greek Orthodox priest:

There will always be weeds – our lives are not perfect. But just because your garden will never be free of them, don’t stop pulling weeds.

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It felt wrong to ‘like’ that post, because it is tragic. But I do fear that you’re spot-on.

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Killer instinct, eh? I’ve struggled with that demon too, but more from a “wannabe” status than because I was actually good at it.

I think one of the stories that best represents my long and slow cure from it came from Myron Penner’s “End of Apologetics” book where he related a story of a young nonbelieving man in college always getting slaughtered in debates by his combative Christian friend who was trying to convert him. And when he was asked why he wasn’t converting, after not having any good replies or refutations for his friend’s well-crafted arguements, his reply was: “…because I don’t want to be like him.” And all the intellectual brilliance, indomitable proof, verdict-demanding evidences - the whole shebang, was apparently left as a useless pile of very truthy crap on the bench as he walked away from it.

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Just listened to the recent podcast with Dr. Ray where she and Jim Stump discussed several of those topics. In short, if you can’t be trusted on demonstrable evidence, how can you expect to be taken seriously on matters of faith?

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Sorry–I found it. I’ll try to listen. Thank you!
154. Janet Kellogg Ray | Science Denial and Christian Culture | Language of God (biologos.org)

I should have linked it, but was on the phone in the car, but my wife was driving.

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I am so sorry–I should have realized it was the most recent one. I am looking forward to it. I am struck, though–it’s exactly what the former AiG rep said this year at our church–if God is not accurate on his science, how can we trust Him in faith? I know that we explain that it is accommodation–though I have to admit, I understand what they say and would really like God to explain a bit sometime why He didn’t do a bit more explanation of real science. There’s a lot I don’t know.

Another come back may be that a true and just God doesn’t really hold us to being too detail oriented in matters of faith, either–maybe He is more like a father, who knows how we all struggle–and wants us to look at what’s more important, than the details.

The very fact that people like Tom Holland find critics despite trying to give a balanced view of history is disturbing in itself, and especially on the Christian side, the lack of acceptance that the course of faith to our present day has been in many cases in spite of the church, and is laid at the feet of the Catholic church, despite the clear Calvinistic influences guiding the American concept of Empire, which displays all the signs present in the Roman Empire/Church.

It is the showcasing that concerns me, because it is quite clear that many different experiences and considerations came together to form the modern ethical stance that we claim to have, not least the experience of the 20th century and the fact that the choice to be made in the face of oppression, violence and contempt could only go in the opposite direction.

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I’d like to think that many of us Protestants can now reflectively view Catholicism with a more sympathetic eye - now that so many Protestant traditions have had ample opportunity to become “settled and established” in their own turn, and have discovered for themselves the temptations and challenges associated with institutionalism and the priorities that tend to spring up like weeds (but not all of them bad?) in the maintenance of such establishment. Catholics have a had a longer time than most of us to be learning these lessons. And all of us probably struggle to learn them well. Reading books like Holland’s is an excellent way to let those lessons at least be in our mental/cultural radar.

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I came across trophies that my brother and I won in debate when we teamed up for two years, when looking through stuff in storage a while back. Of all the various trophies I ever won, looking back those have the least value to me.
When I told his widow about them she just said to do something positive with them . . . so I put them in my backpack one day when biking out to the jetty north of where I do conservation work, hiked out the jetty a hundred meters beyond high tide line, and dropped them in among the boulders. There they’ll serve to slow the movement of water through the jetty and thus help sand build up on the land side, and however small that benefit may be due to their insignificant size compared to boulders the size of a sedan I think that will be more positive than our ability to verbally and logically smash others’ arguments ever was.

I heard that phrase more than a few times in response to campus preachers. I got disgusted enough with one of those preachers that I cornered him as he and his assistant were taking down their little speaking platform for the day and told him bluntly that during the several hours I’d hung out around his audience he’d had one definite impact in terms of people becoming Christians, and when he asked, I reported, “Over a dozen said no way would they be Christians because they didn’t want to be like you”.

In a way that’s a commentary on how the western church tends to do theology: it gets treated as a set of propositional truths that if stated clearly and correctly must (of course) cause people to believe. We forget a point made by St. Francis of Assisi, that many times the only preaching of the Gospel that people will hear is the deeds they see us do.

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Not the same at all however similar they seem: God is accurate in science . . . if He ever bothered to care one whit about our cosmology or biology! The core point is what one is trying to communicate: if one isn’t intending to communicate science, there’s no reason to expect scientific accuracy, but if one is trying to communicate science, then there’s a LOT of reason tom expect it.

One Benedictine priest I met once commented that he believed that when we get to heaven and ask God why He didn’t explain more science, the answer would be that it’s hard enough to get humans to pay attention when talking about truly important things.

He isn’t too detail oriented in terms of propositional truth – which is not the same thing as faith.

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Here is another excerpt from Holland’s book which I’ll follow with a thought of my own. I think so many of these insights are very badly needed in the U.S. right now.

Here is an excerpt where Holland is speaking of the Hebrew people and their Torah.

Here was the manifestation of a subtle yet momentous irony. A body of writings originally collated and adapted by scholars who took for granted the centrality of Jerusalem to the worship of their god was slipping its editors’ purposes: the biblia came to possess, for the Jews of Alexandria, a sanctity that rivalled that of the Temple itself. Wherever there existed a scribe to scratch their verses onto parchment, or a student to commit them to memory, or a teacher to explicate their mysteries, their sanctity was affirmed. Their eternal and indestructible nature as well. Such a monument, after all, was not easily stormed. It was not constructed out of wood and stone, to be levelled by a conquering army. Wherever Jews might choose to live, there the body of their scriptures would be present as well. Those in Alexandria or Rome, far distant from the Temple though they were, knew that they possessed in their holy books—and the Torah especially—a surer path to the divine than any idol could provide. ‘What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to Him?’20

The Romans might have the rule of the world; the Greeks might have their philosophy; the Persians might claim to have fathomed the dimensions of truth and order; but all were deluded. Darkness covered the earth, and thick darkness was over the nations. Only once the Lord God of Israel had risen upon them, and his glory appeared over them, would they come into the light, and kings to the brightness of dawn.

For there was no other god but him.

Holland, Tom. Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World (p. 57). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.

The above thought makes me think of what we Christians are trying to do today. Just as the original Jews experienced their theological ‘earthquake’ of God showing them that the true locus of worship need not be a physical fortress or temple - all of which can be overrun by invading armies; but instead can be God’s word, copied and spread and read anywhere there was a scribe to teach it. And Christ brings that theological earthquake home to a higher level yet when he tells the woman at the well: “The time is coming and is now here when people won’t worship God in Jerusalem or on this mountain … but He will be worshipped everywhere in spirit and in truth.” (my shortened paraphrase) And now, I wonder if Christians today aren’t in need of re-learning (or learning for the first time?) that theological revolution delivered by Jesus (and Paul): the radical claim that we worshippers are now to think of ourselves as temples of worship to God! Which may even be yet another step removed from trying to make a book of printed words (the Bible) into a temple - which can, after all, also be stormed and attacked by modern ‘armies’ of argumentation and rhetoric. Yet it is God’s Spirit active in each of us that becomes our locus of communion with God. “Come further up and further in!” as C.S. Lewis would say. Instead so many Christians are wanting to regress back to times when they invest their faith back into things (like their own modern understanding of “a book”), and even worse (and earlier) yet: into actual places (like the modern country of Israel and its temple mount). We turn our backs not only on what Jesus taught us, but can’t even live up to what Moses challenged his people with prior to that! We instead want to invest ourselves into our own power-plays and national/international intrigues of this world - that Christ warns will come and go just like the grass of the field. I’m not pretending that I’m above this criticism. I’m caught up in doing this too. Lord have mercy on us all.

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This seems to be the wrong way around, didn’t Paul say that the Law wasn’t able to do what Jesus had done?

Yeah …this is my point. The law was one standard which was challenging enough in its own right for people to rise to it’s level (e.g. limit your revenge to an eye for an eye), and Jesus raised the bar yet more (don’t take revenge at all). And we Christians today are barely even living up to the lower old standard of Moses! Much less Christ.

Ironically Mervin, belief in the Bible does not depend on a rational argument as Calvin presciently described in the Institutes. This means reasonable people can disagree about it, and reasonable people can defend it from criticism. It’s going to be a line drawing contest for those who do believe in Jesus and disagree about what words in the Bible are to be read as having divine authority. I am game for this, as I also, more than anything, look forward to meeting Jesus face to face.

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