…or adopt a fascist version of it.
I think that those two concepts are not incongruous except that Cody prefers to use this platform to preach and when not preaching to consider only literalistic and simplistic perspectives. The typical blame the sinner responses, or no true Scotsmen fallacy, or lack of understanding that many churches who teach “in spirit and truth” also had huge lasting and impactful sins that lead to consequences are glaring.
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That’s exactly what happened in Nazi Germany, when Jesus got an Aryan makeover.
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The reference to a person not humbling themselves is to point out that they still love their sin more than Jesus. So that person would not want to associate with anything that has the appearance of God. Now if a person loves Jesus they will seek out His body (His church or called out ones) to have fellowship with and to encourage one another daily. Those who are Christ’s are a part if His body and each member is there for the benefit of the others. If the congregation they are a part of is say, just a social club, then I would expect they would look for another congregation that would unit with them in their devotion to Jesus.
Obvious observation, but you should also include probably most everyone else who posts. All proclaim (preach) what they think on any given topic, each one has their own soapbox. I just happen to be a newcomer here amidst many old timers. I am motivated, compelled, to preach the gospel in season and out. To encourage, exhort, reprove, rebuke with all long suffering. Christ is everything. He is salvation. Me being united with HIm in his death and resurrection and Him abiding in me, is my salvation. He delivered me from the lordship of sin and the devil, so obviously I want to speak of Him and proclaim the mercy He has shown and the liberty and power He has given all who call on His name.
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Hmmm…
I am always explaining how heaven requires the removal of sin, for no matter where you go, sin will bring the seeds of hell with you. I was just wondering if compared to your words this describes some sort of spectrum. Now how to approach this analytically? How about taking a look at the premises I see built into what you are saying.
- People are not Christian because they want to sin. Oh boy! That is one of the most preposterous notions imaginable, and many converts to Christianity including myself will refute this. In fact, I think it only applies to people raised in a repressive version of Christianity which equates so many things including science, and art with evil, that they often end up throwing everything they were taught including morality into the garbage. But then the real reason they have abandoned Christianity isn’t because they want to sin but because they want to live – want to embrace all the beauty of God’s creation and use all the talents God has given them.
Other premises are not so explicit in what was said but one is only caused to wonder if they are not in there somewhere. So perhaps these are best phrased as questions.
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What is the measure of these things? Is letting the church dictate your opinions the measure of humbling yourself and thus the measure of whether you love your sins more than Jesus?
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And what is the measure of “appearance of God” or “His body”? If you chose the “wrong” denomination does that mean you must love your sins more than Jesus?
Exactly.
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Do you even believe there is a true body of Christ?
If so, how does someone become a part of it?
I understand your perspective.
I have a question for you. Do you wish to discuss the deeper ramifications of what true repentance is like, the costs, and honestly the discussion at hand?
It seems that you are focused on a specific interpretation and ministry reflection 1 Cor 2:2 but neglecting Hebrews 6:1-3 and also the context of those verses in comparison’s with Paul’s calling/ministry.
I would but I am not sure the moderators would think it is going along with the thread (I could be wrong). If you want to open another thread that would be fine if you think it might be appropriate.
Yes, but I don’t think it equals a Christian denomination. I don’t think it is even necessarily confined to Christianity. In other words, it is for Christ alone to say what is His body and it seems only too likely to me that it is very very different from what most would think. How very embarrassing would it be if most of that body isn’t what we would identify as Christian at all. Though I would be hopeful that it is a much more inclusive group with many Christian denominations as a part of it.
I think a criterion like that is tantamount to legalism. You will not hear any such thing from me. I don’t really believe in any guarantees.
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I agree. Yet, much happening in the churches is more about cultural tradition and human relationships than about the teachings in the Bible. Adapting a certain kind of (limiting) culture, we may drive either the young or the old away.
If older believers are ‘driven away’ by cultural changes, they usually move to another congregation that they feel is more friendly to their needs. Young believers may also move to another congragation but, too often, just remain outside the churches. If the contrast between the life and thinking outside the church (in school and elsewhere in the society) and the thinking (limiting culture) within the church is too strong, there is a cultural conflict that may drive the young away.
As a father of two young adults (both believers), I have noted the importance of friends. If a young person has good friends outside the church but no or very few similar-minded friends within the church, she/he is less eager to go to the church. If the way of thinking (culture) within the congregation does not feel right or is too limiting, even a young believer tends to spend time with similar-minded friends rather than in the congregation. Old ones may think that these young should be more rational, rather than be driven by feelings, but children and even the majority of young adults are mainly driven by feelings - they have still developing brains.
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I think you’re right. However, I think even the older ones remain in the church because of friends and also from comfort of tradition; sometimes that’s more important to us (I’m now 50) than rational thinking 
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The problem that arises is that there is a real division in what some feel the true meaning of “picking up your cross and following Jesus” really means, often along generational lines, but not exclusively. Some see it as staying true to tradition, some as abandoning tradition and moving towards social justice. Both can find meaning lost in their actions, if they are not careful. I just had a young friend post " I’m old enough to remember when ‘Conservative Christianity’ was not a code word meaning: rejecting everything that Jesus taught. "
That sort of sums up the divide. Neither side is totally correct, but each side has its points.
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That is an interesting note.
I would add a third meaning. Jesus promised that His followers will be hated and persecuted. If I have understood it right, this would mean that the cross refers to willingness to follow Jesus and live according to His teachings even when there is a cost to pay. Maybe persecution, maybe a choice between living according to our own will vs. according to the teachings of Jesus. For the first christians, cross had a very concrete and serious meaning: a painfull and shamefull death.
You are correct in your thoughts that the cross is an instrument of death. If we try to save our life we will lose it but if we lose it for Jesus sake we will save it.
In reference to the cross of Christ, those who place all their trust in Christ were with Him on His cross. “I was crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.”
“For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin, because anyone who has died has been freed from sin”.
A short time after I turned and submitted to Jesus I started going to a church. There were all ages there and all of them became my family. I enjoyed the time with both the young and the old. What attracted us to each other and the bond that held us together was our devotion to Jesus.
Some years later I moved to another state and started meeting with a different congregation. Again, the age of my brothers and sisters in Christ didn’t hinder my relationship with them. When we went out to proclaim the Good News of Jesus there would be a mixture of ages, we and those we engaged were benefited from all of our activity, no matter the age of the brother or sister that was sharing.
As my kids grew up and when some of them were convicted of their sins and repented, they bonded to the others in the church no matter their age. The older folks were held in high esteem by my younger children. My kids respected them and enjoyed them. If someone is truly born again from above, then their family are those who also love and serve God.
One of my daughters got married and followed her husband to live in the state he was from but she never lost her respect and admiration for the pastor and people she grew up with. There was a bond with those brothers and sisters in the church, they were there when she was born again, they are still important to her.
I have two boys who are 20 and 24 and have chosen to still live with us and help us. Their love and respect for all those at church no matter the age, is continually expressed. They have tremendous admiration for the older folks and honor them at all times.
The key for young or old staying connected to the body of Christ is their love for God and Jesus first and from that a love for the body of Christ.
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I have another daughter that has ran from God and the body of Christ. She had the same upbringing as all my other children but she has chosen love of self and sin, over love of Jesus. She has fallen into the trap of love yourself, your wonderful and beautiful and believe in yourself.
They basically all had the same group of friends growing up because my wife home-schooled all nine of them from the very beginning. They all had the same instruction in church and the same opportunity to learn from Jesus. She chose herself rather than Jesus.
Jesus tells us not to try and save our lives here, but she has chosen not only to save her life but to continually try to exalt it higher. A never ending, vain and useless path which leads to separation from God and to the lake of fire. There is hope for her but she must come to the point where she sees that the only thing of true value is faith in, love for and obedience to Jesus. He alone must be her treasure that her affections are set on.
So I have children that are clinging to and honoring the body of Christ because they love Jesus and children that ran from Jesus and are clinging to sin, love of self and the carnal nature. Whats the difference between them? Love of self more than love of the Father, Son and the body of Christ.
So, all my children have all heard the same instruction in the way of the Lord. The same seed was cast onto their soil but some made the choice of love of this world over love for God.
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So… you have children who at least continue to let you think they measure their own value by your standards and you have one daughter who has a life of her own. At least… that is all I am getting from your description. I would have to hear her side of things to understand anything more about it.
Like I said before, I really wonder how you think that you can measure such a thing. I have sincere doubts about whether God has anything to do with it.
Rom 6:16 "Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, (if a person constantly chooses to sin, then they are slaves of sin)or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."(If a person doesn’t repent and turn to God and if they reject the teachings of Jesus, then they are not slaves to righteousness.)
The Samaritan woman at the well that Jesus spoke to, did not have the water of life springing up in her, therefore she was living a life of slavery to sin. But Jesus was willing to give her the water of life, but it took faith in Him to receive it. My daughter does not have that faith yet.
The woman caught in adultery was a slave to sin but Jesus came to free the slaves and give them eternal life if they would repent and turn to Him. John 8:11 “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” Jesus told her to leave her life of sin, my child has not chosen to do that yet.
Rom 6:6- “For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.” My daughter has not placed her faith in Jesus yet and so therefor has not been united with Him in His crucifixion and resurrection. So she has not been set free from the lordship, power and mastery of sin yet. Obviously you can not read what she writes online and has said to me personally and you don’t know the life she lives, so you are unable to see the fruit of sin she produces. But sin and the carnal mind are her masters and not until she turns to Jesus and becomes united with Him in His death to sin and resurrection to life will she be free from them.
So why does a person not associate with those who love and obey Jesus (His body and church) ? Because darkness does not understand the light and can not bear the light. John 1:4- “In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.”
A couple of fundamental teachings of Christ are repentance from acts that lead to death and faith in God. Heb 6:1 “Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,”
She has made it clear by her words (she has told me not to talk to her about God) and actions and expressed desires, that neither of these are are of value to her. She still needs to receive the freedom that only comes through Jesus. She needs the power and life that only comes through union with His death and resurrection.
She needs faith in the one that God foretold would bring us peace, for she has no peace with God yet.
Isa 53:5 “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.”
It is not my standards but the Father’s. Their fruit is obvious to all, both inside and outside of the body of Christ. By their deeds and words they continually shine the light of the Gospel of Christ that is active in them. My 24 year old son works with me and I have customers who congratulate me on the manner of person he is. I know he proclaims Jesus and His kingdom to them because I have been with him when he has. When we work together, if I don’t bring up the Lord to my customer, my son will. His love and thankfulness for Jesus is a spring of living water, welling up in him, pouring out and blessing those he comes in contact with. He has not forgotten the manner of life that Jesus delivered him from. His desire is that people will turn and trust in the Lord and be saved from the power and slavery of sin.