Is it defensible for a Christian to set aside the Great Commission in support of ecumenism toward the world's other religions?

Faith & Science Conversation
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I agree and I definitely like it, at least for God as I conceive Him. :wink:

And thank you for sharing some of your background. You’ve been very helpful in helping me understand the tension between the two things I asked about. I don’t want to chafe in the face of hard-sell proselytizing but it has been an obstacle for me. Not to say you are anything like an extreme example by the way. On a scale running between Salvation Army bell ringer to used car salesman, you are definitely closer to the bell ringer end.

To become the hard-nosed, used car salesman level of proselytizer, you probably have to have been raised by atheist zealots. I think it is like being an ex-smoker. Most of the atheists I’ve met who think religion is a relic that keeps us rooted in the dark ages turn out to have been raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. I was raised as the second of seven children in a nominally Christian household that included a very religious but mostly absent father (due to his being in the navy) and a less zealously religious mother who stopped trying to bring our horde to church before I started school. So I never felt oppressed by religion and have to admit my world view was somewhat shaped by the early exposure to it.

Agreed. Thank you for indulging my curiousity.

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I agree, I’m not trying to say we should just smile and be coexist either and be afraid to speak Jesus’ name, and to say that we all choose our own path and that is right.

I know some are called to be missionaries or preachers or evangelists, that is a blessing, a specific calling I think.

Luke 8:38-39 “The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, “Return home and tell how much God has done for you.” So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.”

Some are called to work their farm for His glory, raise their children, help their neighbors ect. Jesus didn’t say, convert your home town, judge them for not believing you, use apologetics to convince them to flow me ect. He said, just go, and tell your experiences, how you experienced God and what He has done for you.

That is I think the answer to @MarkD thread. The great commission shouldn’t be in conflict with other religions. They believe their god(s) and live accordingly, and we believe our God and live accordingly. I think the great commission can be lived out by (first making a relationship with them on a personal level) sharing how your God personally helps you, NOT how He could help them, unless/until they ask you.

If you own a business, and you are doing fantastic and you talk about it to your neighbor, who also started a business, if you tell him how to run his business, I bet he will shut you down and get defensive. Rather if you talk about why yours is successful AND he sees that it is,he might ask you for tips or try to do business your way. Especially if you business is only doing ok, and you try to give him unsolicited advice?

If a Muslim friend asks if I believe they are correct, I will tell them that I do not believe so, I believe…and tell of my beliefs then. But I don’t think it would be fruitful to say, Christianity is right and better for you, let me tell you why, and persistently badger them about it.

I guess you have to define abundant. I didn’t mean great health, many friends, a lot of money, no difficulties or suffering. I meant living it how God intended.

Free of worry, fear, bitterness, doubt. I am not saying I don’t experience all 4 of those things at times, but when I do, it is from taking my eyes of Jesus, like Peter did, which caused him to start sinking. But when focused on God, there is unexplainable peace, security, acceptance, love, hope. That is when we are living our life abundantly and God’s love will begin to pour/overflow out of us.

Yeah, I think that probably would be a better word, thanks.

I also said how Paul spoke of heavenly treasures, by again I think that was to say that we shouldn’t treasure earthly comforts. Gaining the world would be having every and any earthly comfort, friends, family, health, money. To have those things at the expense of not knowing Him, that is losing your soul and not living your life to the fullest.

So I stand by your fixed quote “I think exclusive focus on the eternal or afterlife is bad”.

Some treat heaven like it will be a bowling alley with bumpers, and earth has no bumpers. They are so afraid to have a gutter ball, they never roll it down the lane, they wait till heaven, were there will be no gutter balls. I think the place with no gutter balls should not be our focus. Rather roll the ball, bowling is fun. Sure we screw up at times, gutter balls don’t feel good. I like to bowl, so I bowl now, and want to show the world how much fun it is to bowl. It is great to bowl now, and will be even better when I have bumpers and can’t get a gutter ball. I don’t want build a team of people who get to bowl with bumpers some time in the future. I am not going to try to scare people or convince them how cool bowling with bumpers will be and if they don’t listen to what I say or my religious books say, they will bowl gutters for eternity.

That is what I am trying to convey about ‘“not focusing on the future”, nor winning souls for my “team”.

I kind of agree with you on that. I jus don’t think efforts of man alone will get us there. Rather the grace of God.

Jesus pretty much said the same thing in Mat 6:34 “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”

We should reflect on the past, be thankful for what God has done for us, try better than the times we failed (but not beat ourselves up for, He has forgiven us), and ask Him to help us now.

But right on about enough thought for tomorrow so as to keep it coming. I am not saying Jesus was against a 401k or being financially wise. I believe you should be prepared for the future. Be ready when the future comes, but don’t worry like “I need to have x,y,z, the future is coming!”. More of an “I am going to have x,y,z, for the future”. The former leads to moral compromises, thinking we are in charge of our future, lack of faith that God will take care. We convince ourselves it is ok to cheat on this test, we will pass and get into the best college if we do ect.

That is an ironic statement. :wink:

Definition of hallelujah—used to express praise

Asking to give me praise/glory, for a quote, that has in the quote, that all glory/praise belongs to God. Lol

I don’t want or deserve any, but you can give God the praise.

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I think the only way to live if it were to be eternal is to know and live your purpose. Those who are suicidal or depressed feel as if they have no purpose or it is insignificant. You take away purpose, you take away the will to live. Perhaps they lost a job or relationship they worked so hard for. Life is spent/wasted trying to achieve a goal, and when it is reached a new one must be set. Or if it feels like it won’t be reached, is was taken from you that leads to despair. It is a tragedy when anyone loses that earthy purpose and death seems like the only option.

But God created in us an amazing, unexplainable contradiction, where living to honor Him, is our purpose. It is a goal that can never be achieved (no new goal to set), yet is achieved daily (no despair of not reaching it). It can’t be taken from us, though the Deciever can convince us to give it away. And when we try to achieve it (of our own strength/merits) we fail, but when we acknowledge Jesus perfectly achieved it already for us, it is achieved without/despite us, and with us at the same time. There are even contradictions in the contradictions! But it results in an unexplainable zest for living life that way, and it will be great in heaven when we can live all day every day like this. As of now, some days are like that, other days we lose focus on that goal and purpose of life.

It is also very sad when a Christian gets distracted and forgets their eternal purpose and they also end their life.

Happiness comes and goes, earthly purposes end or fail, but eternal purpose in an eternal God is achievable!

I would absolutely recommend learning your eternal goal and practicing it now to “get the hang of it”.

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Well I meant give you a hallelujah of agreement for what you had said, not for who or what you are. I’m pretty sure that is what a preacher means when he asks if he can’t get one from the congregation. :wink:

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I assumed that, it was more of a tongue in cheek comment.:wink:. Sorry for the confusion.

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No problem. I thought maybe that was it but so hard to be subtle online with folks you don’t know so well. At least it is for me.

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I will try to look for this Miracle of the Panel Truck" item…wherever it may have landed in the ether of Biologos

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With regard to Psalm 101:3, a verse I mentioned earlier. What does it mean to not look at anything worthless? What does ‘look’ mean, and what does ‘worthless’ mean in this context?

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have you listened to Pete Enns’ latest podcast on Ecclesiastes? “beliyya’al” reminds me of the word root “hebel” as “stuff,” “smoke” in “Vanity,” though Enns put better nuances on it. I really like how he counterpointed with the “worthless” part by saying “Kohl ha’adam,” 'this is the man," or “this is the whole duty of man”–the positive emphasis, as opposed to the negative. Great word study-thanks.

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I’m not sure of the root relationship, but I was wondering, anyway–thanks. Maybe @Jay313 would know. Thanks

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What I meant was, is this verse literally telling us to not even look at something worthless? And does worthless mean worthless overall, or worthless before God?

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Good question. I wonder if some Bible scholars could comment. I am sorry. @Jonathan_Burke? I think you would know? Thanks.

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Sorry I couldn’t reply sooner, @Randy. Let me rip through the whole Psalm before I return to v. 3. I also want to pass along a link to the online version of the NET Bible translation of Psalm 101. If you click on the “Notes” tab, you will find translator’s notes on difficult passages. It doesn’t exactly answer @Reggie_O_Donoghue’s question, but I almost always prefer the NET translation of the OT. (I don’t like it as much for the NT, but that’s just me.)

Returning to the Psalm, in this case the inscription “A Psalm of David” is important to understanding, because the poem concerns the duties of the king. (How far David fell short of his goal is found in 2 Samuel.) Some think the Psalm may have been recited by each successive king at his enthronement, although we cannot know for certain. In any case, “loyalty” to the covenant and “justice” to the people were the Davidic king’s two primary duties. Verses 2-4 concern the ruler’s personal integrity; verses 5-7 concern the king’s advisers/administrators; and verse 8 depicts him dispensing justice.

The literal Hebrew of verse 3a is: “I will not set before my eyes a thing of worthlessness," which the NET Bible translates: “I will not even consider doing what is dishonest.” That’s a fairly loose translation, but I think it captures the gist. Personally, I tend to associate “worthless” more with idolatry, as in Jeremiah 10.14-15:

Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge;
Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols;
For his molten images are deceitful,
And there is no breath in them.
They are worthless, a work of mockery;
In the time of their punishment they will perish.

You see the same type of thing in Isaiah’s critique of idolatry in chapter 41, where he challenges the idols to do something – anything – so that we might know they truly are gods:

22 As for the former events, declare what they were,
That we may consider them and know their outcome.
Or announce to us what is coming;
23 Declare the things that are going to come afterward,
That we may know that you are gods;
Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together.
24 Behold, you are nothing,
And your work amounts to nothing;
He who chooses you is an abomination.
… 29 “Behold, all of them are false;
Their works are worthless,
Their molten images are wind and emptiness.

Interpreting more in this vein, I would say that “set before my eyes” indicates contemplation/worship, so that the Psalmist would then be expressing his loyalty to God by refusing to worship worthless idols. On the other hand, “worthless” is used most often of people and their actions, such as in Judges, where many men are described as worthless. In that case, “set before my eyes” is more along the lines of imitating an evil role model rather than simply looking at something vile. Interpreting in this vein leads to an understanding more along the lines of the NET Bible translation, where personal integrity, rather than worship, is primarily in view.

Both interpretations have their merits, but regardless of which one you favor, both also affirm exclusive loyalty to YHWH and his covenant.

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Wow. Thank you. That helps a lot. I never knew the possibility that the kings may have recited this as well.

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This is mostly speculative.

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It’s a loose interpretation. My personal preference, but the majority lean the other way, hence the NET Bible translation.

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I agree that it does probably refer to idolatry, it still says ‘do not even look at’ idols.

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True, but hyperbole is part of the poem throughout, as in v. 8 where the king says he will silence all evildoers in the land and cut them off from the city. In v. 3, the king’s loyalty is so great that he cannot bear even to look at an idol, let alone look at it with approval or worship.

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Perhaps a literalistic reading of poetry is ill-advised.

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Quick learner.