Is it defensible for a Christian to set aside the Great Commission in support of ecumenism toward the world's other religions?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Thanks for the contribution, Mark. My original example still stands…a person crossing a street and not noticing an oncoming car – needs to be warned. If they pay no heed, then they have little chance of surviving the street crossing. It is not obnoxious or mean for someone to call out and warn them. After all, they presumably are not committing " suicide by car" as they cross the street. They presumably are unaware or too preoccupied to have noticed the speeding vehicle headed their way.

The Bible teaches that we are each doing that sort of thing. We are individually dead in our sins but think we are doing okay. There was that movie “Dead Man Walking” a number of years back, and it concerned another subject. But in a real way that is still all of humanity. The Bible says that Christ’s death and resurrection makes it possible for us to actually have life (as opposed to the other thing) -----and that there is no other way to achieve it but by admitting to God that we have sinned against Him and that we need forgiveness which comes by the atoning work done by Jesus on the Cross. “There is no other name given among men by which we may be saved” – book of Acts (New Testament)

No “pressure on the Christian” here…just personal belief, experience, and a recognition of God’s declaration — which is reality…

And yes…living together with “good will and mutual respect” is desirable. That is what people are doing when they warn others about cars coming — or the need to find forgiveness and new life in Jesus. The 20th century is littered with the debris of bad ideologies that were “supposed” initially to engender equality — mankind living with respect and good will and without religion in most cases ---- but these efforts left tens of millions dead. Yes, there are examples both ways on that score, but the truth is that when humans start defining good and bad, it somehow tends to go awry. “There is a way that seems right to a man but the end of it is death”…

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Good morning Robin. I wonder if you would agree with me that we will all die so in that sense we are all dead men walking … eventually. The warning you are shouting has to do with the potential continuation of ones path beyond the grave. I wonder if you would agree with me that eventualities beyond the grave are a might more hypothetical in nature than an oncoming car?

Now you have faith in what you think awaits us beyond the grave and I know you have nothing but good intentions when you shout your warning. But surely what if anything awaits us beyond the grave is a topic permitting of more points of view than the advisability of walking into the path of an oncoming car. I guess what I am advocating for is greater tolerance for people who hold different opinions regarding hypothetical states of affairs such as potential post-grave hazards.

Thank you for your concern nonetheless.

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In earlier posts I related the story of my colleague, Prof. Eric Lien, who grew up in Taiwan, and as a teenager got permission from his parents to attend classes held by Christian missionaries in the town they lived in. Early in their lectures (sermons?) they quoted John 14:6 and assured Eric that it meant that, unless he proclaimed Jesus as his Savior, he would be damned to hell. Eric asked about his parents and other forebears who had not made such a proclamation. Answer: “Too bad. That’s just the way it is.”

Perhaps in the 21st century this erroneous teaching is rare, or is softened by stating that ‘not saved’ does not mean an eternity of suffering. But I have heard that preaching with hellfire as the assured outcome, and my mother was taught that from second grade on. Even as a pre-teen she could discern when her ‘superiors’ were misleading her, and so she did not pass down that grieviously harmful doctrine to me.

So the missionaries in Taiwan thought they were saving souls with the way they were interpreting John 14:6. But in neglecting to respect the solid sense of morality the religious beliefs of Eric’s parents and distant forebears installed in him, the missionaries sermons had the exact opposite effect than what was intended. [I am not sure that your analogy of warning a pedestrian of an oncoming car has any application to Eric’s case.]
Al Leo

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Hello Still-Learning.

It’s always good to start with Jesus. In Matthew 28:19 he says:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

Jesus commanded the disciples to make disciples, so it can be done. He says directly after in verse 20:

"and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

So, we are called to be disciples, which includes making disciples - the Great Commission. You make a false comparison of making disciples to making doctors. Of course, to be a medical doctor you have to study many years and only a certain small percent of the population has the abilities and drive to do it. On the other hand, anyone can be a disciple. Jesus made disciples by having his followers walk with him and see his example while he taught them. The apostles did the same thing. It’s not difficult if you have a willing follower. Finding a willing follower is the hard part.

God does the saving, yes, the forgiving of sins and giving us an indwelling of the Spirit. But, He uses us to help win souls by making disciples, that is supposed to be a major part of the life of any authentic Christian. It also helps prune us, to be more like Jesus to attract as many as we can. Moreover, when someone says something like, “we have to win more souls for Christ”, it is usually understood that God does the actual saving, but uses us to find an open soul.

I never said that we force people to be disciples, that is impossible, being a follower of Christ, or a disciple, takes everything you have - a lifestyle inspired by the cross - you can’t force someone to do that. And making a disciple, in my understanding and practice, is much more than, “letting your light shine” or using a few religious words. It’s befriending people, letting them see the purity of our lives and teaching them the gospel and the basics of the faith. We (my church) do that by having individual studies with people.

I think you and I have different views on what, “making a disciple” entails. Yes, we need to serve our neighbors and meet their needs. We can also have meaningful conversations with them, become their friends and spend time with them, share our stories of coming to Christ with them and invite people to worship services, neighborhood bible discussions or any number of things. In short using our time, energy and yes money to help someone see that they need Jesus in their lives. You can’t make a disciple by merely smiling and being friendly. And again, it’s understood that God does the forgiving, but He has chosen to use us in the process, probably for our own good.

That is a huge problem. While we all are imperfect and make mistakes, including when trying to make disciples, I don’t know how it became acceptable in American Christianity, including church leaders, to demonize and hate. I have doubts that many in the, “Christian” camp in this country had the type of encounter with the cross that Jesus had intended.

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Well… Mark. By saying “a mite more hypothetical” you have worried all those who know someone who thinks they have “been there and back.” I do not know anyone, but every so often I hear of someone.

I do not rely on what people have said about near-death or visits-to-heaven experiences. That is not where I get my beliefs or how I justify them.

But if you believe Jesus is God, then that is another story altogether. You take it seriously when He said “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3:5, 6).

That is just how it is. Jesus did talk about both places.

The story or parable about the rich man and Lazarus is one example. Some say this was just a parable intended to describe a truth about both places of the afterlife; others say that people in Jesus’ time probably knew the individuals being described.

I enjoy the debate on that, but that is just the debate. It does not extend to the reality of Heaven and Hell. Both sides of that debate agree that Jesus spoke of both places

The phrase “dead man walking” – yes, we all will be there some day. But death in the biblical sense also means that we have been separated from God due to our defiance of Him. That is what I meant by death. We were created to have a relationship with God, but we blew it. And we cannot mend the relationship on our own efforts — they are too feeble. So we needed someone to make it possible for us to have life — and that Someone was Jesus who took the punishment for our sins.

As I said, it is quite necessary and reasonable to be respectful of others. if you believe Jesus is God, then you also believe that He knows what He is talking about. He is the Judge of all the earth… And He did say to “go into all the world and …” (see Gospel of Matthew)

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“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God’ trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.” Thomas said “Lord, we don’t know where you are going so how can we know the way?” Jesus said " I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well From now on, you do know him and have seen him. … Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:1-7,

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Boy, you’re a tough negotiator if you can’t even concede that what follows the grave is inherently more hypothetical than what ensues from ignoring a car when crossing a road. Unfortunately all that does is tip your listener off that no honest search for the truth will ensue in a conversation with you, unless you’re pulling my leg. (I thought I might have felt a slight tug.)

Did you know that I do not believe that? It isn’t that I think God is somebody else who goes by another name. Rather I just don’t think God is as described in the bible because that doesn’t square with my own experience.

That much has the ring of truth even for someone who conceives of a natural God as I do. Indeed separation from God would be a kind of death. But you needn’t worry on my behalf as I’m not separated. I have a great deal of appreciation for God and I think He likes my work too. I wonder if you realize that to abandon God as I conceive of him in order to embrace your beliefs would make me apostate by my own beliefs? I’m pretty sure Muslims, Buddhists and those of other faiths would likewise feel themselves cast into great inner turmoil to set aside their beliefs for yours. That is why I asked the question that started this thread. As others have said in this thread who also identify as Christian, there is a real dilemma here in terms of satisfying both the golden rule and the Great Commission.

I received an automated recommendation that having responded to you three times already that perhaps I should have sent this as a personal message. But I would like to share it with Aleo too since he seems have his own reasons to question the interpretation of the Great Commission which makes it wise in every case and no matter what the costs.

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Mr Leo,

Excellent discussion. By preaching terror of God, we imply injustice and frighten people away from Him. An unjust God could be as bad as a devil with greater power–and who would want to follow such a one, especially if his own religion, if somewhat erroneous, is more just and kind? I think George Macdonald rightly said that it’s better to follow no one than to believe in a God who is a devil. Thank you for your perspective.

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I have had that “automated recommendation” before and been advised by the moderator that it is possible to ignore it. So you are OK to ignore it. And read what I said to “Aleo” if you are interested,

Glad something had “the ring of truth” to you. We already are separated from God as a result of our defiance of Him — that is why Jesus had to come and take our place.

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I agree, I wasn’t using doctor to compare difficulty, I was using to to show they come to you, they want to be one. You can’t Bible thump a person into being a disciple.

Yea, that is all I was saying, willing follower.

I also agree.

He does, I wasn’t trying to say He doesn’t use us. Though I do think it is good to make a distinction between, souls being won, and winning souls.

If you live according to the 2 greatest commandments, souls will be won, that is Him using us, or us shining His light. This is what I mean by living/controlling the means.

If you live to win souls, I think that is the wrong motivation, and generally leads to Bible thumping, aggression, and pride, and it seems to do the opposite of what you want, and leads you to sin. This is what I mean by trying to control the ends.

Sorry, that wasn’t necessary directed towards you. But there are many who do that or think that, usually those who are trying to win souls. So I wanted to make that important distinction.

That is what I mean when I say “let His light shine”. That well of living water inside us spills out, like those old Gatorade commercials. The love of God inside you spills out to love others as Jesus did. He related with people, met their needs, and told them of a better way, a way to live life more abundantly.

Yeah, I think we are on the same page, just didn’t realize it.

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Eternal conscious torment is horrible to think of–much worse than anything one can imagine on Earth, because of its neverending character. The belief that simply not understanding or hearing the gospel can result in ECT would logically lead to (horrible to think) justifying killing all before the age of responsibility --a nuclear bomb to exterminate the entire world’s population to stop the birthing of a new generation or of any more reaching the age of accountability, the majority of which would statistically go on to ECT. Obviously, God would not have us do that–I think He has something better in mind.

Reputable Christians (John Stott, Madeleine L’Engle, C S Lewis, George Macdonald) have strongly doubted ECT and proposed other possibilities. http://www.rethinkinghell.com/

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Thanks Randy…yes, I have heard and read some other views on this. But I was not exactly talking about that here…

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I am so sorry. I wasn’t thinking of what you were thinking, but of Mr Leo’s friend’s experience with the missionaries. I truly believe that they meant well. My children recently read a book by Focus on the Family (The Imagination Station–good memories) in which a Christian Amazonian tribe member was wounded. The Christians were grateful that it was he that was wounded, but that the non Christian wasn’t–because he would not go to Hell when he died. That’s sacrificial. However, I was worried about what we think of God if we portray Him as so insensitive. I really think that God is just, and would take the tribesman’s knowledge and heart into consideration at Judgement Day.

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I think any focus on the eternal or afterlife is bad, I know Paul spoke of it often, if only to say that we shouldn’t treasure earthly comforts, I agree. But Jesus came for us now, not just for our after life.

If I was to share the gospel, it wouldn’t be to tell you what you should do, it would be to tell and show you what I currently and in the past, have experienced Him doing for me. How my life here, is so much better with Him! All the more better it will be in heaven, but now, He brings unexplainable peace and comfort and love in my life.

I am a huge fan of George MacDonald’s work. He basically says all will suffer and are suffering, until they come to know God. Just look at FB or the news over immigration or many other topics. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth all day long on earth. Fear and hatred runs rampant. It seems to be a combination of inclusivist, universalist, and exclusivist. All paths do end up to God, but all paths are detoured/funneled to Jesus, to God. There is no need for ECT, however, suffering is, and will be had by all, until they are brought low enough, all impurities are consumed by God, and they humbly turn toward Jesus, in this life, or the next. And every knee will bow.

I am not worried about winning souls to heaven, but I have a heavenly life here and now (thanks to Jesus) and I want all to live their lives most abundantly ASAP, not years down the road. And in them living more abundant lives, God be receive all the glory, to whom all glory belongs, and more people will see His love in others, and a “snowball” effect will take over of more abundant lives and more glory to God!

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Since all we have is a third-person account, I really am not commenting on Mr Leo’s friend or his experience.

As for the Christians you mentioned above — the C.S. Lewis Institute certainly seems to uphold the biblical necessity of ECT, but the “official” Lewis website discusses his rather literary descriptions of hell and his supposition that destruction of the whole person might eventually come as part of the whole corroding experience of hell — best way to put it. This is a descriptive form of annihilationism, which is the experience that Stott also proposed. Neither man saw no punishment for sin …and how long till one is annihilated? Ten thousand years? Teh million? billion? Lewis – whom I have great respect for and have learned a lot from — wrote symbolically at times to make a point. …Madeleine L’Engle is someone I have heard of but never read and it does seem that she believed in a universal sort of salvation. (Very controversial). It may have seemed (in her mind) sweet and kind to think that, but hardly squares with much biblical teaching … at any rate, I would put L’Engle’s beliefs in a different spot than Stott and Lewis…

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Can I give you a hallelujah? I’ve always thought if we really were going to live forever we may as well see if we can get the hang of being happy here and now. People being creatures of habit, misery begets misery while joy would be so much more preferable.

Of course as a naturalist I’ve put all my eggs in the now basket albeit with enough thought for tomorrow so as to keep it coming.

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still learning…I like most of what you said, and you have a good heart…You cannot worry about “winning souls to heaven” since that is God’s job. But “how will they know if they do not hear?” as the saying goes…And an abundant life here is great, but it does not happen for all people, including Christians…it is just the way the cookie crumbles, sometimes…suffering brings some of us to Christ and turns some of us away (same sort of experience, two different reactions) and why it works that way, no one knows.

Well…this is a grand diversion from the OP’s original intent, I think…but in regards to his query, I stick with my original example. There WILL be a judgment someday…but the price for our sins has already been paid…we just need to turn to God and accept it through His Son.

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And I probably should add to your comment that “to abandon God as I conceive of him in order to em brace your beliefs would make me apostate by my own beliefs?” and you added that people of other faiths would likewise "feel themselves cast into great inner turmoil " for same reason.

Of course I know that. I was raised an atheist (in a passive sense for the most part) and did not just ooze into all this – not without a lot of inner struggle along the way. But dreams and reality can be two different things.that is how it is with a lot of things in life. God is…like it or not…

The people of ancient Israel were expecting a Messiah figure to appear in their era, and what they got was not what they expected either…But “the way, the truth, and the life” turned out to be wrapped up in that unexpected package. I am sure much inner turmoil beset most of those who first followed Jesus — Saul/Paul’s story being the most publicized one, but others before and after him had to rearrange their expectations on “how things should go.” It is no different today for most people either.

And there are any number of stories from many other fields where reality was not the one someone – or some group of Someones – had imagined Think how Alexander the Great must have felt when he realized that what his great teacher Aristotle had told him about the geography of the world was wrong?? If he felt like an apostate for thinking so or not, no one knows. But he wanted to get back to Babylon and the only way to accomplish it was to learn the actual route — and not to suppose that the giant river he was looking for was going to suddenly appear…Same thing holds true for the subject at hand. Making God in our own image is a fun human sport. But if we want to know God, we rather have to follow His rules.

OK … think we have done enough on this subject…

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Don’t you think that in the quotation above it would have been better to have replaced the word “any” with something like “exclusive”? Otherwise what I have highlighted in your quote seems in contradiction to the advice Jesus gave us:
Mark 8: 36 _“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul.”
IMHO “the coming Kingdom” that Jesus refers to is the ideal human society that he invites us to work towards so that we become, in essence, co-creators with the Father.
Al Leo

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I don’t know if it will make the “third person account” more convincing, but I have posted a more detailed account of it on this Forum under the title of “The Miracle of the Panel Truck”. At least the event defied all odds and was witnessed by four skeptical scientists. If you cannot find it, I can send it to you as a Personal Message. It was a clear demonstration to me and to Eric that the missionaries’ sermon was in error and needed correction.
Al Leo