If I was going to visit a Pagan/Hindu/Buddhist/etc temple, I would focus on the amazing architecture, and keep in mind that the theology behind it is abhorrent. I would like to visit many countries in Asia such as Sri Lanka and Indonesia, where the travel brochures include trips to temples, which is why I would like to know if it is fine. So far I am split.
As it happens my Catholic primary (elementary) school took us on a trip to a Sikh Gurdwara, in order to teach religious awareness. We also had school projects where we learned about Hinduism. The focus was not on the spirituality itself, but rather to teach tolerance and prevent ignorance.
I’m sorry to hear that. I sincerely hope you’re able to work through the different aspects of it that you’re wrestling with. Having said that, it seems to me that visiting a temple of other gods is really only an issue if it interferes with a Christian’s allegiance to God (as Jesus said, the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind). Unless that allegiance is there first, then deciding whether or not it’s permissible to enter a temple really seems to be a moot point.
I wonder if a move toward universalism with continued loyalty to the tradition you grew up in would fill the bill? As a nonbeliever, I nonetheless can appreciate visiting a cathedral or any of those other places you mentioned. When I do I’m mindful that these places represent what was most central to the values and longings of the people who built them. I see no harm and actually feel a sense of expansion in trying to appreciate the way they represent those aspirations in their architecture and art. But then I’m agnostic in these matters, meaning that while an entirely natural, internal Other that is a co-product of the consciousness I experience satisfies my need to understand this life - I don’t have any investment in thinking it should satisfy everyone or even anyone else. For me agnosticism is simply appropriate humility given our epistemic position.
If you’re feeling on the fence, Reggie, perhaps holding those beliefs you start with as being as good as those in any other tradition without any insistence on coming out on top would help?
Good question. I think Paul’s approval of the Greeks worshipping the Unknown God shows that he had no problem visiting the Agora and even encouraged them in seeking after God. Reminds me of Emeth of The Last Battle, who worshipped Aslan through Tash unconsciously because he obeyed God’s law on his heart. We are all still learning about Him.
As a (potential) OT follower my of reference is Psalm 101:3, where the Psalmist says he will not lay eyes on anything vile/worthless, which presumably means temples to false gods. This suggests a radical separation in my mind.
The NIV says “I will not look with approval on anything that is vile.” It’s certainly understandable that the Psalmist would not look with approval on idol worship since it is condemned all through the OT. But like you said, architecture, history, and more can be gleaned from places even if they are used for other purposes. Certainly you should follow your own conscience in the matter, and if you believe the Spirit is leading you to avoid places like this altogether, then that’s what you should do, though others may come to different conclusions.
For me everything is social. I don’t think there is anything wrong with appreciating beauty in other cultural traditions, and it is understandable that beauty is often religiously directed. But I want to be sensitive to whether or not my presence or participation is construed as something it is not intended to be by others. Some religious places are clearly tourist destinations and the people who view those places as religiously sacred understand that you aren’t participating in a rite or violating their religion’s sacred space by showing up just to look. Other places are different and there is no way socially that you could be a part of activities in that space in a way that was culturally respectful without being seen as participating in the religious rites. Certain objects where I live that are sold as decorative tourist souvenirs have religious significance to many people who live here. So even if I thought one of them was pretty and just decorative, I wouldn’t put one in my house because I wouldn’t want someone to see it and infer something false about me and my beliefs.
I think the verse you refer to has everything to do with intentions not a literal act. I do yoga for exercise. Some Christians won’t because the poses are derived from another religion’s worship poses. People should follow their consciences, try not to offend people, and try not to judge others whose consciences are less sensitive.
We took some of our Spanish students (from a midwest Christian school here in the U.S.) to visit Ecuador last summer. Our knowledgeable tour guide who became our trusted companion and cultural liaison for the week not only told us the stories of some of the ruins and sites we visited but also instructed us about the native religious significance of some of those sites. At one point she even advised us that as we enter a certain doorway, it is a recognized customary sign of respect to bow slightly as you go in. (I did – as did I think most students who were with me.) And that made a great point of discussion for us later in the evening as we discussed among ourselves how we felt about doing that as Christians. Most in our group were fine with thinking of it as polite participation and recognition of another culture’s customs that we were there to learn about, after all.
We also went as tourists into cathedrals which would surely rival some of the fine ones in Europe (and far surpass Europe, I’m guessing, in terms of real attendance and use by worshipers).
We hiked up a small mountain led by an indigenous tribal leader to visit one of their sacred places. We even participated in what he (through interpreters) called a “cleansing rite”. And that involved removing all metal things from our bodies --cell phones, any electronics, and standing barefoot in a circle in the beautiful grass clearing while he recited some special words. You can imagine how Christian school students might have mused whether or not this was “legitimate” for us to participate in. The same thoughts were crossing my mind too, and unlike some of them this wasn’t my first excursion out of the U.S.! But it was okay --we were being treated as friends to a beautiful experience which did not feel compromising (to me anyway), but as more of a gift we could enjoy. After having heard this native leader instruct us earlier in all the ways of the community, how many of them hadn’t needed any pharmaceuticals for decades because of the sufficiency of plants that they knew how to use --after all this, it was eye-opening for us to hear a cell phone ringing on someone, and then see the tribal leader pull it out of his pocket to discuss meal arrangements.
I think when you are visitor on somebody else’s turf, especially a new one just learning the customs, there is a pretty strong obligation felt (and rightly so) to respect the locals who are teaching you things. Only in extreme cases would I feel the warrant or sufficient compulsion to violate that, and if I at all anticipated such a thing I would stay away from that situation in the first place to the extent I could.
I am not sure what you consider “unwilling to agree to disagree while respecting each others point of view.” I think that followers of Jesus understand the need to be respectful – at least, for the most part.
But Jesus did say “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.” If you see someone running out into the street in front of oncoming traffic, you would not be intolerant or disrespectful if you called out and warned them that a car is coming, would you?
So the problem may be that many people do not see " a car coming" — or, in the religious sense, the need for forgiveness of sins through the work Jesus did on the cross as the only means of that forgiveness.
It is probably less a lack of respect than a difference of perspectives — a difference that is created by belief in Jesus of Nazareth that takes seriously what He has said.
This information can be communicated respectfully — and should be. But if you see a car coming toward someone, your warnings may not be perceived as respectful, even when they are.
Well if we’re talking about something concrete that we can both see which presents a clear and present danger … thank you very much. But if we’re talking about an invisible danger which you infer is there but which I’ve already told you I do not … then “thank you, no thank you” ought to get it done.
What we clearly share is this world right now. Please judge me by how well I comport myself here in this world and not by my unwillingness to defer my own judgement regarding what matters most in favor of yours. I honestly think Christians should work on how well they share this world right here and now with those invested in different beliefs. So long as neither of us obstruct the other’s attempt to live their life by their own best lights I don’t think there should be any complaints. Those who go so far as to wish me luck or even aid me in pursuing what I hold dear will be the ones I count as the best kind of neighbor, and that is what I want to be able to be in return.
The famous spots you visit are your choice. If you think something IS vile, of course, do not go. It is all a matter of conscience. But if you are undecided about “remaining a Bible believer,” then you have deeper things than this to worry about.
So the Hebrew word in Psalm 101:3 actually means ‘worthless’, whether or not these places truly are worthless is something I am undecided about. I visited the Pantheon in Rome in April for my birthday. Amazing architecture, and though originally intended as a temple to false gods, it has become a place of worship for YHWH. (Though I am a convert to Karaite Judaism, I believe all the Abrahamic faiths glorify YHWH) Malachi 4:2 takes the Pagan symbol of the winged sun disc and uses it to glorify YHWH, as Ezekiel 31 uses the Mesopotamian cosmic tree symbol for the same purpose. You cannot simply say that the Pagans merely corrupted God given knowledge, as I have heard from some, because the sun does not really have wings, and there is no cosmic tree.
If this is an accurate quotation and has been translated through several languages accurately, it seems to stand in the way of any world-wide evangelical efforts. What if the message Jesus intended to convey is more accurately stated in John 6:44. _“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”_where the “me” refers to Jesus’ role as Christ, the action of God as universal Messiah.
If we are ever to reconcile Christian sacred Scripture with that of other religions is it not incumbent for us to admit that parts of our inspired Scripture might be in error, or at least understood and applied erroneously? Sincere evangelicals must give this considerable thought if peaceful coexistence with Muslims, Buddhists and other scripturally guided religions is to be achieved.
Al Leo
I think the original question had to do with why Christians tell others about their need to receive forgiveness for the sins, and that this can only come by asking God to forgive them based on the atoning sacrifice Jesus made on the cross a couple millennia (nearly) ago.
The original post-er thought people were not hearing his point of view or accepting it. I did say that people need to show respect. Certainly this is true. But I did quote John 14:6. Now you are concerned as to whether or not “this is an accurate quotation.” We do have a copy of part of the gospel of John from about 30 years of the date of composition. Why are you uncertain about the accuracy of the translation?
If nothing else, Old Testament laws and traditions certainly laid the groundwork for the notion that God has rather specific ideas about how to approach Him.
@Christy as usual shares her great wisdom concisely and clearly. I agree with many others here said too.
I disagree. How do you make a doctor. Do you go up to a stranger and force them to sit in your class for hours a day and give them tests? Or do you open up a doctor school, and help assist those who want to become a doctor and are willing to work for it?
We are not instructed anyway to “win souls”, God does that.
Make doesn’t mean force or convince with words nor achieve a desired end state with others… I think it means to live, make them curious how/why you live like you do, and ask you why/how you live like you do. Shine your light of God before all men, so they see Him in you and want to know Him. Which can involve religious words like @Mervin_Bitikofersaid in the quote below.
God wins souls, not us, we just love our neighbors and put their well being before our own. We can control our means, let God control the ends. The problem I think @MarkD speaks of, is when we try to control the ends (i.e win souls or convert people) and think those ends justify the means. We can insult others, berate them, Bible thump them, hate on them, because we are trying to ‘save’ them… it happens too often.
I’ve quoted this link before, and was going to again if you didn’t.
I didn’t know that, thanks for sharing that cool fact.
I completely agree with you there. Jesus ate with tax payers, Paul became a many things for many people 1 Cor 9:22.
If we are in control of mans soul, or had the power to push them out of the way of doom, then I think this would apply. But I would suggest a different analogy.
A man sinking in the water, that we cannot save, because we can’t swim is tired of swimming also. BUT, there is a life persever/float in the water that we are using, provided to us by Jesus. We need to show them with our lives how Jesus is helping us float, and how much better it is to float, and help them see the float in front of them.
But if we live in hatred and bitter anguish like the rest of the drowning world, they will see our float as an anvil, and will not grab a hold. Not only will they not grab hold of anything that looks like it and use all their energy in trying to swim because they can’t see the float we claim as a float, because of our flailing about and splashing in their eyes and punching them and trying to drag them to our float. They want to get away from our thrashing so they can see better and maybe find a float that works.
Usually I agree with you, but could not disagree with you more here. I don’t need to consider potentially flawed scriptures/interpretations to coexist with other religions.
All I need to coexist with other religions is the overall theme of the Bible and the 2 greatest commandments. Putting the ends in God’s hands and the means in mine.
There I agree with you. I think any time you apply a confined verse that is in disagreement with the overall theme, you are applying something erroneously.
Not addressed to me but as the OP I appreciated your contribution and you are right so far. But I was actually wishing Christians were simply less compelled to proselytize. I think those of us in the world now willing to live together with good will and mutual respect should be able to find a theological justification for doing so. Letting it be between the other and their conception of God as Albert seemed to be saying seems like a possible path to get there to me. That direction puts less pressure on the Christian to save a soul at any cost. It might even be a better tact to take in terms of making your faith more appealing to outsiders.
