Is it dangerous to teach evolutionary theory to children?

I seriously read them. I re read some 3 times. I don’t agree. I see worldview pushing the science along to significant lengths. The Christian worldview needs to be the engine that drives the science train and the science he comes up with is driven by the naturalistic one. I have to run to a mtging. blessings sir.

We are a product of the natural processes of reproduction and gestation and birth. If we are a product of these processes, then how can we know that this product (us) is capable of correctly interpreting those processes?

Why is that a problem? The fact that I am the product of processes like reproduction and gestation does NOTHING to prevent me from contemplating and understanding those processes!

Truly. I’m baffled as to why you think it a problem.

Moreover, God is the one who created and ordained these processes. He wanted us to be able to contemplate the natural processes which produced us. Why do you find that so impossible? Once again, you seem to believe that God is very limited in what he can create (that is, us.)

Why would that be “deep”? It is something that I would totally expect of God!

If you mean “It is amazing that God can creating a creature in his image which can contemplate the natural processes which God used to create him.”, then we agree. God’s creative abilities are quite awesome and deep!

You keep refer to nature and that which is naturalistic as if it is a synonym for great evil. Why? God created the natural world. God also declared that natural world to be very good. So why are you declaring evil that which God has called very good ?

God created natural processes like photosynthesis, gravity, electricity, and chemical reactions. Those natural processes are all part of the very good creation. The Bible even says that nature itself shouts the praises of God, the Creator.

Yet all I hear from you about nature is that it is “naturalistic” and therefore somehow evil.

I realize that you are ignoring my questions to you. But at least I hope that my post will help you by explaining why so many of us are totally baffled by your positions. Lots of us who have worked in the sciences did so because we are impressed and fascinated by the natural processes God created. And methodological naturalism is the scientific method. It was one of the great gifts of Christian philosophers to the modern world. It takes the position that “God did it” is good theology but not helpful scientific description. You keep confusing methodological naturalism with the philosophical naturalism of atheism.

It sounds like the only “baggage” of such a view is the collection of misunderstandings and bias imposed by people who don’t understand it. Moreover, it is also a good example of the Argument from Negative Consequences fallacy. Whether or not some fact has implications that are harmful to someone or something does NOT make that fact incorrect. For example, somebody might want to deny Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation and his Laws of Motion because both make bombs and ballistic missiles possible—and those can kill people. Yet, that fact does NOTHING to invalidate those laws of physics.

Likewise, whether or not some author thinks that the Theory of Evolution comes with “baggage” is irrelevant to whether or not the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation of the available evidence. You may think that evolutionary processes are “befitting” the God we worship. But that is irrelevant. Personally, I have emotional reactions to death and suffering—yet both are described in the Bible as important parts of God’s plan for the redemption of sinners and even for how Jesus learned obedience. So I often have to remind myself that my ways are not God’s ways. My objections don’t matter! God is sovereign and will do as he will!

You might find it valuable to save this entire thread for rereading in the future. When I was mentally processing the conflicts I felt about what I was learning in the scriptures and in science, I was able to go back and reread some criticisms of my writings which were written many years before. I was amazed at how differently I understood then than I had years before.

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You’re not responding coherently. I wrote that you should read less and examine evidence more.

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The reading I do is examining the evidence. On your side, I read evidence that Messenger RNA in bacteria doing such and such but resulting in NO CHANGE from a bacteria combined with millions of years proving that bacteria will change to something other than bacteria and thus evolution from common decent is not science. And science has never shown one single example of life coming from non-life. AND the science of statistics shows that complexity from simplicity by chance, the power of gravity, and energy from the sun is so necessarily impossible that we don’t bother to call into play probability! And since science is so revered by your side, I find it troubling that you claim common descent based on this pseudo science when it is really highly philosophical and less truly scientific. From this and the numerous assumptions along the way, I find it even more strange that indexes based on these assumptions and worldview tainted conclusions are developed to disingenuously show support for your claims.

Then there is the opposite end of the spectrum and extreme that says my way of interpreting early Genesis in a literalistic way must be exactly right therefore I throw all science that wholeheartedly disagrees from this extreme measure of interpreting early Genesis out the window all together. I find myself pulling away from this extreme a bit too but with reserve and this is why:

When I look at these two options and consider the fact that when I became a believer, I did so when I placed my faith upon the objective principles of God’s Word, mainly surrounding the cross then I grew in this faith by trusting in the Word when it declares God as all together outstanding and outside of the boundaries of explanation at times, I must therefore conclude that for the two options above, the latter is the better, hands down. I may not agree 100 percent with young earth creationists which I am allowed to do and still go to heaven, I am still 100 percent more in line with them in principle than any evolutionist who places too much allegiance on naturalism and less on this depiction of God, no matter their intent and no matter how many God semantics they place upon the concept of naturalistic occurrence so adored by the likes of the religion of naturalism.

And I want to tell you a story: I am not kidding you Ben (my son is a Benjamin) just last night after my son’s awesome bball game after they beat an undefeated team in their last game of the season, Benjamin and I went upstairs and were hanging out talking about the game and such when one of my daughters who was downstairs started screaming for me to come down immediately to “get my gun.” I freaked. I could not make this up either. I ran and learned that my wife and daughters heard behind closed windows and doors what sounded like a loud vicious dog attacking a helpless rabbit or such and after the sound of this, they heard crying from what sounded like from writhing pain from what must have been the pain inflicted on that helpless animal that got attacked. Where I ran down the stairs in a panic thinking I needed a weapon from the gun safe to prevent a potential intruder, instead I got word that my ladies wanted me to put this poor animal out of its misery! I grabbed a flashlight and searched our rear yard (where there is a 12 acre greenbelt of hiking trails) and was not surprised to have found nothing. I never even heard any of this crying that they had heard…

After this, it was if the Holy Spirit immediately reminded of principles spoken about God creating in Genesis. 1:21: God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the water swarms, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And He blessed them…"

I thought to myself, "man, evolutionists suggest that God created via agonizing suffering and pain, disease, death and survival of the fittest and this to me does not sound like a very blessing worthy process of creation at all! Maybe God creating in a gracious way by designing animals in order to survive the brutality within nature as imposed by the likes of satan and sin in Adam and Eve perhaps, but graciousness and suffering and pain coinciding together does not make sense.

The last piece of evidence in this whole worldview battle we speak of is surrounding how to interpret history. I have literally read the history of figures like Abraham Lincoln of only 150 years ago where a liberal historian calls Lincoln unheroic because they slant their interpretation of the evidence towards Lincoln less interested and compassionate about black people and more interested in freeing the slaves to preserve the union. Then I read more what I would call conservative slants about interpreting Abraham Lincoln where He is indeed called a hero because he did have a compassionate heart that was probably welling up with compassion due to events like His deep deep love for His son, I think his name was Tad where Lincoln’s tremendous love and care for his little helpless boy who he’d bring to the White House often with him, turned to deep sorrow upon his early agonizing death. Lincoln went into a depression as I would have had it been me…which may have formed this man into a man of compassion and care for not only American people but perhaps more so for those helpless souls who were treated with such unjust punishment, suffering and hatred just to make a buck in the slave trade and agriculture industry.

There is one truth about Abraham Lincoln, but two completely different slants based on pre conceived notions. That was only 150 years ago! We will probably never know the whole truth until we get to heaven. I believe we will find that there may have been a balance of both viewpoints of Lincoln’s history where we will realize that the ultimate hero was Jesus as He sovereignly worked in the midst of American history. I am sure that if Lincoln is in heaven right now, he has no ability in his nature to be giving himself pats on his own back!

When it comes to my Christian faith where I KNOW God and have seen Him not only work in my life when I abide in His Word that consist of such a sincere sense of care for the poor and love for God that never makes much of selfish pride… but have also seen Him do miraculous which I was not given any opportunity to write off as happenstance, I simply choose to be a stronger believer in Him and His Word and more agnostic to man’s ability to interpret the past significantly more than 150 years ago! When I put those things in order, the interpretation of the evidence is 100% more sensible in the holistic scope of things that our good God created kinds, called this event “good” and created them to be able to evolve within the fabric of their makeup to develop and survive in the realm of the natural environment in which they were placed. The Bible no where calls natural forces means for creation. He calls Himself means for creation for survival in the natural world. For this, I place my faith upon this fact that I find in Scripture and chose to interpret natural history upon the idea that God is indeed the hero and I would encourage all people claiming a Christian worldview to go the way that God’s prophets here declare in principle for blessings in the outpouring of His Spirit for the renewal of the saints and the revival of the church and awakening of the lost into life!

You guys are obviously free to do what you will. I can hear your suggesting in your minds in response to all of what I write and how I have chosen a pathway of unintelligence in choosing belief in my interpretation of an ancient text over objective means of determination but would call you to brilliant scientists and philosophers who I have been encouraged by and who think like I do and who bring real intelligent holistic reasoning to the table of this discussion too. I also believe that a vibrant church which they and I are apart across the world will leave the likes of those succumbing to too many naturalistic viewpoints against the better judgement in God’s Word behind. My prayer is that we be unified upon the principles of God’s Word and if going separate ways is a must, then so it may be. And that is my prayer to our God so worthy of our worship!

I have a real busy season approaching and have to put this to the side for awhile.

Thanks for interesting discussion.

In our Creator’s service and love,

Greg

This thread is a good example of people saying the same thing over and over on both sides. It stops being a constructive conversation when every new post is simply a rehash of the basic essence of the last 100 posts. I’m closing it since the OP says he is done with the topic.

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