Hi GJDS: Since both genetics and archeology are both out of my area of expertise, I must depend on ‘outside experts’ for evidence on which to base my arguments, and thus you have reason to think they lie on shaky ground–especially since the GLF describes a leap within the same species; i.e. with NO detectible difference in genome. When Richard Dawkins said it was as if the cause of the GLF was the ‘programming’ of a Homo sapiens brain, he was not proposing a mechanism, but rather suggesting the place to look for the mechanism. It seems well established that the maximum number of brain cells of a Homo sapiens is reached at or shortly after birth. So the process of becoming fully human is NOT dependent on or proportional to large brain size, but rather on the neural circuitry that develops on maturity. How this is guided by the experiences of each individual has yet to be elucidated. Of course part of the mechanism of transmitting learned experience from one generation to the next is through teaching/learning, but some epigenetic methylation of guanosine and cytosine targets may possibly be involved. At least some areas of further research are indicated.
Al Leo
@GJDS maybe this is a dumb question, but what does PoS refer to? Thanks! Also what does UNA stand for in your post to Al?
Hi James,
My typing expertise (lack thereof) has caught up with me.
PoS - philosophy of science.
UCA - universal common ancestor (NOT UNA).
Cheers
Hi @aleo. The entire argument depends on comparing the genome between species, with secondary data obtained from old remains (historical). Thus if the primary argument cannot provide and quantify a direct link between differences in the genotype with those in the phenotype, then we are left with hand waving and wishful thinking. This conclusion is based on what experts provide on this subject.
The ~40,000 years period is based on estimates of artifacts and things constructed by humans, and the continuation of such activity to civilisations and such. This period does not find any change in human characteristics (physical or biological), but instead displays the enormous impact humanity has on the planet, and the extraordinary growth in the human population - neither of which are explicable via ToE.
Hi GDS
We seem to be ‘talking past each other’, even tho we are in factual agreement. For scientific/biological discussions, I agree that ‘human beings’ should be defined by their genome, and therefore should have the same physical and biological characteristics. When the discussions involve religion, I maintain that one should add a further requirement: Humans should be capable of communicating abstract ideas, such as “ought to”, “afterlife”, “I intend to…”, “that sunset is beautiful” etc. Homo sapiens prior to ~50K yrs. ago could not have a conversation with you or I that included such ideas, and so it is fair, for BioLogos discussions, to limit the word ‘human’ to ‘modern human’–to occupants of the Noosphere as well as the Biosphere. Agreed?
Al Leo
I think you misunderstood my comment - I am saying: (a) biologists are not in a position to quantify a link between genotype and phenotype, and yet their strongest argument of chimps and humans having a common ancestor is the similarity of the respective genome, and (b) if they describe the characteristics of humans and chimps, they must show (scientifically) these are due to the 2% difference in the genome. I have not seen anything remotely convincing that shows the 2% difference directly leads to the vast difference between chimps and humans (or any other species).
Add to these matters, the fact that even the notion of species may be debated (is it based on how each is described physically and functionally, or is it reproduction capabilities?) and the uncertainty is to me, enormous.
Historical data however shows the enormous difference of humanity - not any other species or creature - and no scientific/biological theory can account for such an enormous information packed in 30-40,000 years. If science cannot provide a valid account for this, than science should be silent. Thus there is not a scientific basis for such classifications as Noosphere or whatever.
You have several points to be reconsidered. Religion a human construct? Moses borrowed from Egypt and Hamurabi for some of his 10 commandments. St Paul argued for god leveraging off the existing greek unknown god. Agreed? And in the passing of time Christians went from several positions on the state. Launching crusades against moors . Then later against each other. Catholics against protestants was most common. Many died. Now we all think we should not threaten each other over religion. Agreed? The Christian church has gone from accepting Slavery to rejecting it. Same with Galileo, first he was a heretic, now a hero. All developments in religion that won’t go back. Agreed?
So development has occurred from of old until now.
For me the answer is in the book of Job. Job is advised by many, unsatisfactorily. He is only sated by the voice of God. So we have made god in our own image. The old bearded guy walking in the garden with Adam. We need the voice of God to assure, maybe redirect us. Only the truth from God. I get that from the bible. And I am annoyed at people who focus on periferal, culturally derived words as important. Paul has a lot of that. The creation story is not about astronomy, geology,biology etc. It is about, Big issues. God is.
Jesus told us to forgive. That we would be forgiven according to how we forgive. But this is a country of revenge. We invaded Afghanistan solely for revenge and how many stood to say no? On a large scale we dodge the serious advice from God, and rather argue small stuff. Isaiah has words that foreigners should not be harassed and hardliners won an election based on rejecting foreigners. The bible gives unnatural advice, difficult to follow so change the subject.
One last thought, from the bible, we are told that we will not understand god’s identify, nature. It is beyond us. Let us study creation and practice forgiveness.
I apologize for the delayed response! And thanks for the compliments. I’m enjoying the several conversations I’m engaged with on here more and more. It’s encouraging in its own way.
This is fair. I would say it’s more, though. Like Indiana Jones, Raiders of the Lost Ark, more. Christ shows us the Father in a way which can actually have meaning for us, yes. For outside the Word, God is incomprehensible to us. But he also rescues us from God’s wrath. Without Christ, without God’s work and promise, our relationship with him is that between rebellious creatures and their justly wrathful creator (think “sinners in the hands of an angry god”). The exceedingly good news is that, for Christ’s sake, God has promised himself to be a God of mercy and love. (Jn. 3:16ff.)
I can understand why it is less than a pleasant theological assertion, this jealous God. But if he is the one who created all things, governs all things, is merciful and loving, etc., then when humanity is busy making false gods of themselves and praying to empty idols or denying God’s existence, even we can admit (hypothetically) he has every right to be jealous; he’s not getting what is owed him. What exactly it means for the Almighty to be “jealous” isn’t perfectly clear; it’s an anthropomorphism. But it fits. It tells us he wants us as his own. It tells us we are guilty of provocation. It tells us that justice must be served or assuaged somehow. For Christ’s sake, God’s jealousy becomes his passionate desire for his children to return (thinking of the parable of the prodigal son/the two sons).
But I’d hate to travel too far from the subject of the thread! Thanks for the questions. My responses were brief. I hope you’re staying warm and enjoying family.
Cordially in Christ
J
Sure. I never claimed religion is not a human construct.The fact that it clearly is one is a presupposition for my contention that Christianity is not merely a human construct. That is not to say that no elements of Christian religious practice are human constructs. Language is a human construct, yet it is the vehicle of God’s revelation.
Again, I don’t understand what I said that would make you think I’m arguing for a static Christianity. I actually really like redemptive trajectory as a biblical hermeneutic approach.
So studying revelation and thinking about theology is a waste of time? Can’t agree with you there. The whole point of seeking knowledge and insight about who God is and what his character is like is so you can love God and people better. No amount of contemplating the stars or looking through a microscope is going to inspire me to lay down my life for a friend, turn the other cheek, or risk losing everything to find the Kingdom.
no offense intended here. but.there is a long list. of people chasing righteousness and ignoring the homeless on the street. Start with the apostles. their first act was to elect a 12th member because you can;t have religion without the magic 12. burning heretics over whether Jesus is true God and true man or what? The trinity? An awful lot of liturgy has nothing to do with Jesus. Golden Chalices to emphasis the kingly nature of Jesus. I feel he is ashamed of much done in his name.
when the virtues so simply, clearly preached are left behind. " I was hungry and you formed a committee, I was thirsty and you wrote letters to your congressman"
i feel with what passion remains in me, that God is not honored by trivial arguments, but by compassion for people in need.
and, to get back on target, i believe compassion is in our evolutionary history. We did not first discover it with Buddha or Christianity, etc. there is something in “lower life forms” that looks like compassion.
peolpe say “humanism” like it is a disease from ancient greece. compassion, i think, is in creation before there were humans… so evolution might teach us that we are more related to “lower” life than -say Aristotle would accept. At what point did god bless evolution? it was not a point, like the birth of Jesus, but it happened of billions of years. It is amusing that people just don’t think it possible. Is it possible that different races developed from Noa’s family in the short time from the flood, by evolution" and can you imagine a million (billion) years? God is outside of our imagination.let that go.check out god in the least of your brethren in your locale. Je sus tells us, that is the way to heaven, compassion for the least ones here and now. it is not about making the sign of the cross or another study. maybe offense is intended to provoke a rereading.
They are not mutually exclusive.
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
I live in the second poorest, most violent state of Mexico. Mexico is now ranked by the Maplecroft Criminality Index as the third most dangerous country in the world. (Behind Afghanistan and Guatemala, thanks to drug trafficking) You know how many humanists I’ve run into over the last five years busy blessing the least of Guerrero with their highly evolved compassion? Zero. I have met quite a few Christians of a variety of persuasions.
I really don’t have a lot of respect for Americans who fuss about how Christians don’t do anything to make the world a better place. Get out on the front lines somewhere in the world, where the refugees and the Ebola patients and the AIDS babies and the trafficked girls are, and get back to me about who you find there with you.
Along those lines, have been reading Wright’s Surprised by Hope, and one of the things I took away from it was the idea that we are post-resurrection people and now live in the Kingdom of God (which was reassuring this political season…). We are called to be God’s instruments in the here and now.
As my wife tells me, " I knew that." But, it is good to be reminded especially on those days when difficult people present themselves to us.
Or in your own neighborhood…
i have provoked you enough that you share your dedication. sorry to provoke, but i honor your dedication. I have seen Mennonites in Lesotho and Niger as missionaries working on worldly things. bricks and water. I have seen forgiveness in Nicaragua between guerillas- Sandinistas and government troops. I have seen compassion between christians and moslems in Nigeria. I have seen a lot of NGO’s in Haiti. Koreans collaborating to clean the streets after the earthquake. In Quatemoc, I have seen in northern mexico is a colony of mennonites, who witness to a rich life without so many things. And i have listened to Mexicans in the north complain of their experience, of insecurity from gangsters. And a Taiwanese supported aid to El Salvador after their earthquake, in chinese. that one i did not personally see, but he showed me the pictures. It is some kind of Budhist red cross? I have seen compassion from South Koreans for North Koreans. This is not a competition, it is to agree that we act out of compassion when we have energy and opportunity, sometimes to fix the water supply, others with medical skills. Often in the face of personal risk, like malaria, or hostage taking. I have felt protected, in my journeys. I find with the compassion, the shared hopelessness, joy. Maybe they have let god have control of their lives, no amount of worry or posturing can make it safer, let us agree to trust each other. Each ttrip i would notch the passport and have another insight into how widespread and effective and necessary is compassion and forgiveness. (and how selfish am i)
Currently i am warm and dry, with internal plumbing and electricity. sort of in between gigs. I am happy to know you are living your conviction. I am glad i provoked you to say it.
but we are way off topic. evolution informs us that the species differences are not as hard as Aristotle imagined. That all life is related. cells and DNA. i think it calls for an expansion of Christian theology that would be considered Heresy in earlier times. I think we used crutches that we need to let go of. Like 10 commandments, that is it. no. compassion and forgiveness are not in the 10 commandments. and maybe revisit the question if dogs can go to heaven.
I wasn’t feeling provoked. I was just sharing an anecdote to dispute what seemed to be your insinuation that Christians mostly care about stupid peripheral stuff and aren’t right in the thick of it when it comes to compassion. No, we don’t have a monopoly on compassion, but we have a long and storied history of it as well as an impressive presence in some of the most compassion-hungry places of the world right now. I wasn’t feeling personally defensive, because I don’t feel at all accountable to random guys on the internet. But I do feel compelled to defend the uniqueness of Christian service through the centuries and in the present. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say in the first place.
I think evolution could add meaning to Ecclesiastes 3
"I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. 19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? "
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+3&version=NRSV
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