If the earth is old or evolution is true, why did God not reveal it, and instead allow it to be discovered by people hostile to the faith?

So, Tim, are you saying that God created the universe with evidence for a history of events that never happened? If that’s your position, then fair enough, but I don’t see how you can get that from the Bible.

It is based on measurement whose practice and interpretation have to obey the rules.

That is a presupposition

And Scripturally, we have 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4.

Those verses having nothing to do with creation. You have taken them out of context to fit your presupposition. There is no “bara” in either of those two verses. You are practicing eisegesis rather than exegesis.

A young Earth, on the other hand, requires us to believe that God created evidence for 4.5 billion years of history that never happened.

(Exodus 20:11) 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Here is a pharisee who clearly knew the law of Moses

(Like 13:14) "14 But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, said to the people, “There are six days in which work ought to be done. Come on those days and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”

Ummmm…I commend you in giving me a different geological perspective. I must admit that I did not see that coming. Interesting take on the bible. But I am a monergist, not a synergist. I do not see in scripture where any amount of time left to man’s volition could he or she ever fulfill God’s commandment.

Oh come on Wookin. That is simply patent nonsense.

The only thing that I am presupposing here is that when geochronologists describe how they reach their conclusions, their descriptions of what they do are accurate. If that were not the case, then we would be talking about a conspiracy theory of epic proportions involving hundreds of thousands of scientists systematically lying not only to the general public but also to their university students, their colleagues, peer reviewers and editors of professional journals, and to governments, research councils and oil companies funding their research, over a period of more than seventy years. With no whistleblowers anywhere. Such a conspiracy theory is simply not credible. Especially when there is nothing about it on Wikileaks.

And yet YECs are adamant that 2 Peter 3:4-7 are all about creation. You can’t have it both ways.

In any case, I made the point point that you may not think it’s much to go on, but as I said, at least it’s something. As I said, in order to believe in a young Earth, you have to believe that God created evidence for 4.5 billion years of history that never happened. In support of that, the Bible gives us nothing.

The bible does not say that the earth is flat. Critics assume that because of the “four corners” which is N,W,E,S,

As for your question. You have reworded it in such a way to fit your view of scripture. I, myself can do the same. Where do you get a hint of evolution or that the world is billions of years old in scripture? if you don’t, then my argument stands. The OEC/theistic evolutionist has a zero biblical leg to stand on.

C[quote=“Wookin_Panub, post:56, topic:40479”]
God’s word does not support any of their scientific presuppositions about the planet.
[/quote]

I think this statement is accurate and shared by many if not most in the EC camp. I might get a little push back from those who use the “bring forth” verses to support evolution, but generally Christians in science do not feel the Bible is addressing scientific issues but rather theological matters in its text. Evidently, that view is not shared by the young earth community, who seem to think modern science is found there, and is part of its purpose.

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This is the revealing statement right here. This is all about people like Wookin_Panub dictating what God, did, would do, and can do, transforming God into nothing more than a tool and slave to their own bid for power.

People who actually believe in God know different. They know that God can reveal things to us in any way He chooses. But which is REALLY the more believable? That God would reveal things to us through sinners and the language they devised and have used for innumerable acts of sin and evil, or that God would use His own creation which has nothing to do with the sins of men?

Sound like a mirror of the atheist claim that the Bible doesn’t have a scientific leg to stand on. The fact is that the Bible doesn’t say a single thing about evolution and science doesn’t say a single thing about the Bible. All these claims of either group really tell us is that one doesn’t value science and the other doesn’t value the Bible, and so they see no reason to reconcile them.

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Monergism is not only limited to YEC. Many Christians use this limited view of the teachings of Jesus to justify many doctrines.

My friend, to say that one does not have a presupposition or that one does not approach the evidence with presuppositions IS a presupposition

And yet YECs are adamant that 2 Peter 3:4-7 are all about creation. You can’t have it both ways.

I do not know what YEC you converse with, but I certainly do not. 2nd Peter is contextually the second coming of Christ.

in order to believe in a young Earth, you have to believe that God created evidence for 4.5 billion years of history

You mean how one interprets the evidence to be 4.5 billion years.

You are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing. You are telling people like me that people like me dictate what God did or didn’t do by telling us what God did or didn’t do.

Doesn’t mean it is wrong.

So, Wookin, is it only a presupposition that the earth is round rather than flat? Is it only a presupposition that the sky is blue? Is it only a presupposition that one plus one equals two?

Seriously, you can’t just cry “presupposition” as if it were some kind of magic shibboleth to nix any and every argument that you don’t agree with. That approach simply isn’t intellectually honest.

“Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”

Looks like it talks about creation to me. You don’t have to be a YEC to see that.

As I said, Wookin, interpretations have to obey the rules. 4.5 billion years obeys the rules. 6,000 years does not.

Once again, you can’t just cry “interpretation” as if it were some kind of magic shibboleth to let you nix any and every scientific finding that you don’t like. That approach is simply not intellectually honest.

Thank you. I appreciate the candor. I myself, am a YEC presuppositionalist, not an evidentialist. That is not to say that I do not use evidence. But my worldview is biblical, which is why I am a YEC.

Incorrect. That is exactly what I did not do. I said God can do whatever He chooses. And I ASKED people what they thought was more reasonable. At no point did I say what God did, would do, or could do.

By contrast, you simply dictated what God would do, giving no reason whatsoever why people should believe any such thing.

So, Wookin, is it only a presupposition that the earth is round rather than flat? Is it only a presupposition that the sky is blue? Is it only a presupposition that one plus one equals two?

Seriously, you can’t just cry “presupposition” as if it were some kind of magic shibboleth to nix any and every argument that you don’t agree with. That approach simply isn’t intellectually honest.

I have nothing against observable or operational science. It is the science that requires interpretation, and interpretation that runs contrary to the world of God. I am only pointing out presuppositions because, we can’t get away from them. I am only only pointing out the obvious.

“Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation .” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”

Looks like it talks about creation to me

We were speaking about the context of 2nd Peter 3:8. You are reading the text backwards, my friend

Show me where I dictated what God would do?

Yes, Wookin, some interpretations do run contrary to the Word of God. They run contrary to the Word of God when they disobey Deuteronomy 25:13-16, for starters:

13Do not have two differing weights in your bag — one heavy, one light. 14Do not have two differing measures in your house — one large, one small. 15You must have accurate and honest weights and measures, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. 16For the Lord your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.

That’s what I mean when I say that you can’t just cry “interpretation” or “presupposition” as if it were some kind of magic shibboleth. Interpretations have to obey the rules. And the only interpretation of the evidence that obeys the rules tells us clearly, unambiguously, and insistently, that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.

Wookin, you’ve missed an important point that I made. Regardless of the context, at least it gives us something to go on as far as long ages are concerned. As I said, the only alternative is to believe that God created evidence for a history of events that never happened. In support of that, the Bible gives us nothing.

“Yes, Wookin, some interpretations do run contrary to the Word of God. They run contrary to the Word of God when they disobey”

Those are the laws of Moses. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Those laws do not apply to me anymore, but I will learn from all the laws of Moses passed down by God. They are beneficial for me.

Interpretations have to obey the rules. And the only interpretation of the evidence that obeys the rules tells us clearly, unambiguously, and insistently, that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.

You mean, “YOUR RULES”. I do not follow YOUR rules, because of my biblical worldview, my friend

Already did that in my post above, but here we go again.

And like I said, you didn’t bother to give us a reason why we should believe this, you simply dictated this to us.

my response to this by contrast…

If God did reveal anything to us, it would be however He chooses to do so. But we can ask ourselves which is more reasonable, that God would reveal things to us through the language and writings of sinful human beings whose thoughts are only evil continually, or that God would reveal things to us through His creation which has nothing to do with evil sinners?

Does this mean that I do not think the Bible is the word of God and a revelation to us? No it does not. The thing about sinners is that having put their free will into the bondage of sin they are predictable and easily manipulated, so God can use them to write what He chooses. And in Jesus we see that God is well able and willing to come to us where we are in the midst of our sin to speak to us in the way we understand. But why in the world would God restrict Himself to this? And why would He not use the rest of His creation to speak to us as Paul said He does in Romans 1:20? Christians who believe in God would have no reason to think God would not do this. But people using Xtianity as a tool of power would prefer to restrict the god they craft to something they can manipulate with their rhetoric to say whatever they want.

Regardless of the context…

at least it gives us something to go on as far as long ages are concerned.

It doesn’t, but your presuppositions are driving how you interpret that text to mean billions of years.

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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